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I think there's some chance the world
might be ending soon.

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I think unless people protest against,
you know, creation of

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superintelligence,
like it will be hard to change this state

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If programmers are your heroes, then,
you know,

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armies.

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also science, and like prediction,
and control the systems including human

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And then you ask, okay, like
if you have a social system,

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predict it?
Why do you want to control it at all?

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And the basic answer to that,
at least for me, is to

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like control mankind's incredible capacity
for violence.

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This is the kind of system
that a superintelligence...

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where a superintelligent system starts
making sense because it's like, "What

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can give us our freedom back?"
And like it can't. Obviously, it can't.

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It's, it's,
it's the both uses of the system, not,

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This technology gives you excess
resources, and excess resources

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do actually bring, you know,
actual human happiness.

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It's a very precise misunderstanding of
anarchism and

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socialism,
and all of these like vaguely humanist

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like, "Look, machines would be good
if they just like

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took away our work
and gave us more time for fun." But it

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seems as if they're just like taking up
all of our time, turning us

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into like more machine-like slaves.

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I am speaking to, uh, Samuel Shadrack.

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Uh, he's a friend of mine who I met, uh,
a while back in, in, you know, when I was

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at college. Um, he's really smart.

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He's really, like ridiculously smart.

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He's written a lot of very interesting
stuff about, uh, AI safety.

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He's had a really insane
and weird life with a lot of twists

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And he's a very

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person who's I think
is like really dedicated to like, uh,

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in. Um, I think, uh,
if you see the rest of his channel,

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someone who's with a lot of integrity,
with a lot of like, uh,

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he wants to say. Plus,
you're on his channel,

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Oh,

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uh, everyone, my name is Samuel Shadrack.

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Uh,
I have Aatish Sahay with me who I met in

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college. Yeah, we were both in college.
He was a friend of a friend.

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We seem to have interest in at least some
similar topics around, you

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know, philosophy, morality, et cetera.

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Also, I think,

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uh, yeah. So like my friend
was actually very interested in

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AI forecasting, you know, if we
are getting superintelligence and so on.

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And you know, Aatish is, you know,
my friend's friend.

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So hopefully we'll figure out, you know,
a shared topic of interest.

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Otherwise, professionally, yeah, I mean,
I graduated from IT Delhi in

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2023. Uh,
I have now transitioned to becoming an

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activist full-time.
I think there's some chance the world

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soon.
I think unless people protest against, you

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know, creation of superintelligence,
like it'll be hard to change this state of

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affairs.
I'm trying to raise awareness in some way

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Uh,
that's basically what I'm doing right now.

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All right. Um,
I'm just having a professional

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Um, so I, I'm, I'm an ex-journalist,
that's just because I

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wrote stuff on the internet. Uh,
I'm an ex,

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uh... I worked for a venture capital firm.

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Uh, so ex that as well.
And I'm a game developer, uh,

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which, you know, not, not an ex on
that yet.

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And currently, I, I,
I've always sort of been an extremely

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uh, systems politically oriented thinker.

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And I think I'd like to, uh, you know,
pursue that.

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I think professionally that's been my
trajectory,

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in the world we're in. You know, my,
my degree, uh, which I'm about to say

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is, is in computer science
and social sciences.

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So not competition social sciences like
hard, hard computer science and

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hard like social sciences. And, uh,
you know, the twin only met in

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my own head.
And I think I have some conclusions

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reached,
but I also think I have a really fun way

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conclusions. So, that's my introduction.

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Uh, the topic today is, uh,
systems of holding back.

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Now, uh,
if you go to the Wikipedia page for

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you will... The most interesting of,
of the sources is this book written by a

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Finnish person who basically came up with
the idea of systems theory.

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And the third chapter of that
is linked in, um,

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on Wikipedia.
And it basically goes into these things

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can identify very easily
if they start thinking about it.

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Uh, for example, right, um,
the examples they give is managers

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would like to be more involved in
and help their 0004 more, and

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employee- and employees would like
if their managers

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Um, but that doesn't happen. Why? Um,
and teachers would like to make sure all

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their kids get very good grades,
and kids would broadly like to get good

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and that doesn't happen. Right? Um, and,
you know, if, if you go around, you...

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I mean, like I said,
people can very easily start identifying

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It's like, you know, I...
people want like, you know,

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you know, people to be happy,
and they don't want to see battles around,

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keeps happening. And so when I
was doing...

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I actually do video games, and this, this,
this, this mathematical concept of the

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isomorph or isomorphism came up, which
is basically

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space between spaces, right?
So it's very easy to identify.

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If you've ever seen, for example,
the packing problem, uh,

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little shapes and like, you know,
optimal way to pack X things,

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pack, uh, you know, one, two, three,
four boxes.

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And some of them are like really weird
and you wonder like, "Oh, why, why is that

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happening?" Sort of the little spaces in
between them.

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That sort of got me thinking, uh,
sort of been thinking about this for a

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time. Uh,
but that's sort of got me very intimately

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society we're actually in,
and why it feels like all of us just

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go from like, uh, box to box. You know,
you go into a box at work, and then you

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get into a box to go home, and then
when you're in, at home, you're in a box.

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And what's the, what, what,
what engine attached to a box

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kind of system we're in? And, uh,
it made me think a little bit

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more than about what the system
is actually like holding back, right?

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Uh, and the answer is travel.
A lot of anarchists, libertarians,

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everyone has been like, "A car
is a very difficult thing to like manage."

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need to get all kinds of, uh, permits
if you want to drive one.

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You can have insurance, visas.
And broadly, right, if you want to

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go from like one room to the other,
no one will stop you.

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But if you want to go from like one
country to the other,

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red tape. And more than that, right,
there's a lot of people...

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and I do think it's a very important
point.

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uh, involved in that red tape, right?

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And there's a lot of, like, uh,
people who work at airports, who work

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at, uh, immigration offices,
who work at this stuff.

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I mean,
they kinda have to feel like their job

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Um, you know,
sort of you kind of justify your border

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by saying, "Look,
we have all these people who

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and, um, it's very important that they,
like, you know, get to

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... It's all very important
that they have their jobs.

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It's very important
that people don't come in

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everybody knows that like, um,
it's locals who commit most of the crimes.

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broadly speaking,
because it's a really bad behavior.

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Like, I'm, I'm not trying to say
that like ...

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No, I'm not trying to say that like, "Oh,
because you don't commit any crimes." But

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the data is right there. Um, you know,
this is sort of holding back, uh,

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the, the feeling of like, "Oh, well,
I'm an outsider and, you know,

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them to get, like, get mad at me." Um,
and this

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is something you do anyway
when you start being watched, right?

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When, when,
when you wanna go from one room to the

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something bad in that room." You,
you're very careful

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that, that one to there. Um, you know,
borders, maps, uh, these

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things really do make us feel as if we're,
um, being held back,

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uh, from moving around. And, you know,
people are like, "Well, you know, if, if I

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just travel all the w- all,
all the way and then I'll travel around

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Everybody wants to do that. I-
in some way, everybody wants to do that,

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seems almost as if we had a lot more
freedom in the past,

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lot slower, right? When it wasn't fuel
and metals

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and that kind of stuff you had to manage
when you were running a boat.

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When it was like, um,
you can just like sort of carve your own

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go out as f- as far as you want. In fact,
as, as, as, as far back as like

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the 200, 300 BC, we

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...
There was an entire culture basically on

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Samuel Indians. Um, India was a, was a,
was a very

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well-known, in fact, seafaring nation,
and we ...

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The Ramayan and, and the Mahabharata
and a lot of these like other things exist

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Cambodia, Thailand. Uh, in fact,
they're very popular.

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And if you look at, like,
when they got there, it's, you know,

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six centuries, and be-
it's because we had boats.

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In fact,
there were kings who came from ...

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There was basically a delegation
that came from Thailand to India to sort

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king back. Uh, and that,
that doesn't really say like everybody

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but like people were broadly going.

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I mean,
the Tamil kings famously who like ran

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empire. And the idea that ... Or,
or at least

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broadly speaking, the idea that like, um,
you know, you know, back

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in the day, it,
it used to be like take like two weeks to

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And, but that meant
that like really the only thing stopping

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the fact that it would take two weeks,
not so much the idea that

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like, well, you know,
there's a highway there.

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These days people sort of only assume
that like if you can drive, y- y-

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drive basically in like an hour
or a day or some amount of time.

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Even a road trip, right?
There's this feeling

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car and you'll ... It,
it should be something you can do, right?

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It's not that like, "Oh, th- I'll,
I'll just, I'll, I'll get there when I get

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there," is basically like something
that e- very few people have the luxury

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for. Um, this sort of brings me, uh,

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weirdly enough to machine learning.

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Uh,
a lot of people don't really think about,

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art as something actually present in their
everyday life,

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no, because it isn't. Uh, if you sit,
if you're, if you're, if you're in an

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apartment complex right now, you
are sitting on, I mean,

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on a floor that's either statically filled
with cement or

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tile. And, you know, people,
people don't think about this because it's

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else are you supposed to make floors out
of?" And it's like, I mean, people

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actually in temples, in, in most houses,
and in a lot of places, took a

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lot of very good care to make sure
that the houses looked very nice and they

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weren't just boxes that they slept inside.

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Um, you might say it
was interior decorating and stuff.

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But, um,
if you can only optimize for certain

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will only do those things. Um, that's

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where, uh, machine learning comes in.

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For me, machine learning,
and for a lot of people obviously,

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of statistical methods attempting to get
to the right answer reliably,

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often. And getting to stuff reliably often

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is good, obviously,
and it should be used in

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places like, um, you know,
like being able to install windows

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being able to, like, uh,
sort of predict how many people need what

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food. But we don't do that, right? I mean,
we don't do that at all.

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We're mostly just like,
how do we make sure that, uh,

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running big corporations
or continue to run big corporations

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and stuff?
Because sort of the stock market, uh,

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it's completely discovered from reality.

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Like, what the price of a stock is,
is basically just like,

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it's gonna go up? And, um, you know, the,

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the, the, the,
the idea of the special interest group

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there, uh, sink. And then for technology,
it's like, "Oh, well, what do the

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technologists really think
is gonna be the future?"

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Us,
us rich people can sort of speculate on

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market, but the future in that way.

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And

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as it turns out, the future
is not a very profitable thing.

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It ends up,
people end up living in boxes and, uh,

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because that's, you know,
weirdly easier to optimize.

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I don't think it's intentional,
but like it, it does feel like that a lot,

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00:10:58,424 --> 00:11:02,114
it? That like, you know,
if you're living in a city and

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know, if you work in corporate job,
you're basically just going from like this

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to that box, to this box, to that box,
and everybody's stuck during commute and

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00:11:07,724 --> 00:11:11,044
everybody's stuck here,
and everybody really just wants to be able

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And, you know, um,
there's been this craze around

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00:11:15,044 --> 00:11:17,764
in, in India again,
there's been this craze around programming

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sort of get out there because, you know,
everybody knows that like, oh, well,

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Indians are really good at programming.

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00:11:21,464 --> 00:11:23,973
You know, they,
they have all these Silicon Valley jobs

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there. Um,
and that's obviously got a lot more to

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do with like family pressure than it has
to do with actually, with actually

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being able to move there and, and,
and be really well.

215
00:11:34,264 --> 00:11:37,504
Because to be a Silicon Valley programmer,
I mean, you basically need to know the

216
00:11:37,564 --> 00:11:40,024
right people,
you need to have the right degrees,

217
00:11:40,084 --> 00:11:43,864
really interesting things, um,
that sort of push the frontier in

218
00:11:43,944 --> 00:11:46,704
that direction.
But anybody who's worked in Silicon Valley

219
00:11:47,204 --> 00:11:50,144
nine out of 10 of these things
are basically just trying to make Uber

220
00:11:50,204 --> 00:11:52,794
And at the time Uber were solving ...

221
00:11:52,824 --> 00:11:54,624
No, it wasn't solving a problem, right?

222
00:11:54,684 --> 00:11:58,644
It was just like, "Hey, we'll, we'll just,
we will sort of take away the agency

223
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of people to be able to negotiate, uh,
taxis and to be able to negotiate all this

224
00:12:02,224 --> 00:12:02,984
other stuff." And

225
00:12:03,944 --> 00:12:06,944
that sort of, all that happened. You know,
programmers

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00:12:07,004 --> 00:12:10,872
became-...
heroes sort of overnight because they

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00:12:10,992 --> 00:12:14,472
to identify or at least give this
impression that, like, "Oh, c-

228
00:12:14,652 --> 00:12:18,572
really smart things, um,
where we can identify,

229
00:12:18,592 --> 00:12:21,792
uh, you know, places where, like,
everybody goes, all these problems are,

230
00:12:21,832 --> 00:12:24,452
we can just, like, make more money, um, by

231
00:12:25,372 --> 00:12:28,292
doing a gig economy, right?
Or doing some other thing." Because yeah,

232
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society where, like,
everybody's moving to cities

233
00:12:30,752 --> 00:12:34,672
out, uh, what they really want or,
you know, what

234
00:12:34,712 --> 00:12:37,412
this law firm,
how this law firm's going to hire me.

235
00:12:37,602 --> 00:12:41,152
And not on the, like,
really core interesting stuff

236
00:12:41,212 --> 00:12:45,042
and, um, how your family
and your friends see you

237
00:12:45,192 --> 00:12:48,112
the really important, like, things
that are really special to you, you know,

238
00:12:48,172 --> 00:12:52,042
time moves forward. Um,
it might not seem like machine learning

239
00:12:52,112 --> 00:12:55,771
is related but, like,
that's what these computer scientists

240
00:12:55,812 --> 00:12:59,192
They're able to create, like,
probabilistic machines that broadly tell

241
00:12:59,232 --> 00:13:03,112
people, you know, people...
and then really they tell people where

242
00:13:03,212 --> 00:13:05,862
they should be and where they should
congregate, and, like, really obvious...

243
00:13:05,862 --> 00:13:07,292
this is like really obvious stuff.

244
00:13:07,312 --> 00:13:10,622
It's on- on so many levels,
it's just like low hanging fruit of, like,

245
00:13:10,692 --> 00:13:14,122
uh, in commercial areas people hang out,
so, like, autos should...

246
00:13:14,132 --> 00:13:17,152
like, autos or bikes or, or cars should,
like, hang out around there.

247
00:13:17,232 --> 00:13:21,192
And, uh, if programmers
are your heroes then, you know,

248
00:13:21,212 --> 00:13:22,252
their own armies. And

249
00:13:23,172 --> 00:13:27,092
in the modern era the army
is the corporation, and

250
00:13:27,112 --> 00:13:31,052
like,
armies exist to like defend a population

251
00:13:31,132 --> 00:13:34,832
by destroying other people, armies, um,
are very

252
00:13:34,872 --> 00:13:38,372
violence oriented, right? They,
they come with the idea of, like, money,

253
00:13:38,412 --> 00:13:40,462
you basically, you basically have to go...

254
00:13:40,612 --> 00:13:44,372
It-
it's ridiculously difficult to feed an

255
00:13:44,452 --> 00:13:47,512
And it, it,
it's basically like where economics in,

256
00:13:47,552 --> 00:13:51,052
economics and money begins because, uh,
you're not really gonna argue with a guy

257
00:13:51,132 --> 00:13:54,032
who's got, like, a big sword
and she's passing through and he's gonna,

258
00:13:54,112 --> 00:13:57,732
your, like, like, if, uh...
ruin your village if, if,

259
00:13:57,812 --> 00:14:00,532
And basically if you want to stop
that raiding you basically just say,

260
00:14:00,572 --> 00:14:04,562
here's money that has the face of this
king over there," and the, the army

261
00:14:04,632 --> 00:14:07,082
can go really far and basically keep,
like, buying more...

262
00:14:07,852 --> 00:14:11,312
keep getting food from, like,
people who are, like, supplying.

263
00:14:11,392 --> 00:14:14,912
Uh, it made longer
and longer trips possible for bigger

264
00:14:14,932 --> 00:14:18,852
groups, um, and it didn't work very well

265
00:14:18,952 --> 00:14:22,762
back in the day because people would get
diseases and eventually a lot of people

266
00:14:22,812 --> 00:14:26,082
would die, and so armies
and hordes became really

267
00:14:26,252 --> 00:14:29,512
fast-moving things that would just, like,
chew through, like, a lot of stuff.

268
00:14:29,592 --> 00:14:33,512
And again, they were able to do
that because armies are sort of

269
00:14:33,592 --> 00:14:36,722
designed to prevent desertion.
That's why everybody wears the same hats

270
00:14:36,752 --> 00:14:40,192
everybody wears the same thing
and everybody has the same, like, food

271
00:14:40,252 --> 00:14:43,612
because when you're in an army,
you're really scared to leave it.

272
00:14:43,632 --> 00:14:45,402
You're really scared to leave it. And

273
00:14:46,472 --> 00:14:50,412
if this sounds like corporate, um,
where you don't really want to

274
00:14:50,512 --> 00:14:54,152
be there but you're terrified of leaving,
that's because corporations basically

275
00:14:54,172 --> 00:14:56,771
took the, the managerial model from,
from military corporations.

276
00:14:56,792 --> 00:14:58,781
And this isn't even, like, mean...

277
00:14:58,832 --> 00:15:00,852
saying that I owe money and violence
are inherently connected.

278
00:15:00,872 --> 00:15:03,752
They are but, you know... Um, this
is just like lit-...

279
00:15:03,862 --> 00:15:07,612
the British came up with the East India
Corporation, which means the

280
00:15:07,652 --> 00:15:10,692
company's for profit to do this

281
00:15:10,792 --> 00:15:13,771
exactly, right?
In the modern era of the corporation

282
00:15:13,832 --> 00:15:17,712
where the company is the creditor
and the people working

283
00:15:17,732 --> 00:15:21,381
for it are debtors, and yet, um, and, and,
and

284
00:15:21,412 --> 00:15:24,812
yet the situation of power is reversed,
basically only happened

285
00:15:24,832 --> 00:15:28,652
because the East India Company had gotten,
like, a fan- fantabulous amount of

286
00:15:28,692 --> 00:15:31,381
riches by, by going off to India
and make some...

287
00:15:31,412 --> 00:15:34,252
you know,
moving stuff back because of sinkage of

288
00:15:34,292 --> 00:15:37,412
lo- lot of other stuff. I mean,
half of their thing was that, like,

289
00:15:37,432 --> 00:15:40,912
had, like, you know, weird kinds of, like,
social slavery systems that nobody

290
00:15:40,952 --> 00:15:43,152
really wanted that so they just kept
revolting against their kings.

291
00:15:43,222 --> 00:15:44,692
But nobody wanted to desert, right?

292
00:15:44,712 --> 00:15:48,502
Because everybody had sort-
sort of gotten this feeling that, like,

293
00:15:48,572 --> 00:15:52,082
we've overthrown all the kings,
now we're free and now everything's

294
00:15:52,092 --> 00:15:55,462
and, and now the system of, like,
deserting isn't the...

295
00:15:55,472 --> 00:15:59,402
and the anti-system of, like, deserting
is in place, and that sucks."

296
00:15:59,412 --> 00:16:03,312
(laughs) "That,
that really sucks for us." So, um,

297
00:16:03,692 --> 00:16:07,172
what happens when you
are really in a system of holding back

298
00:16:07,271 --> 00:16:10,912
seeing fun as a viable thing you can do.

299
00:16:10,932 --> 00:16:14,572
When people do a festival...
people broadly do festivals when

300
00:16:14,612 --> 00:16:18,542
they're... with their family or
when they're in a sys- when they're in,

301
00:16:18,572 --> 00:16:22,512
know,
a thriving system where they're like, "Oh,

302
00:16:22,612 --> 00:16:24,161
well-structured, like, social...

303
00:16:24,172 --> 00:16:26,632
we want to, like, reverse or alter some,
like, social arrangement that, that we

304
00:16:26,652 --> 00:16:30,271
already have." And machine learning will
tell you that, like,

305
00:16:30,312 --> 00:16:33,072
festivals are very good for, like,
flogging products.

306
00:16:33,082 --> 00:16:37,072
And this is just a consumerism thing,
but you just feel like a guilty child

307
00:16:37,112 --> 00:16:40,472
for not being able to provide stuff for
your family.

308
00:16:40,531 --> 00:16:44,472
Uh, and this really is... this really is,
um, I think my, my core point

309
00:16:44,592 --> 00:16:48,152
that these structures make you feel like,
uh, guilty children

310
00:16:48,932 --> 00:16:52,712
whereas you shouldn't feel like a guilty
child for not wanting a

311
00:16:52,852 --> 00:16:56,722
world where artificial intelligences, uh,
decide your every move and

312
00:16:56,752 --> 00:17:00,572
move things around,
because it's not the world that, like,

313
00:17:00,652 --> 00:17:04,112
humans tend to build. Like, you

314
00:17:04,152 --> 00:17:07,752
know, we don't optimize for the really,
like, insane stuff of, like, how many

315
00:17:08,632 --> 00:17:10,992
concrete houses can be built super
quickly.

316
00:17:11,031 --> 00:17:14,232
We tend to optimize for stuff like what
kind of stuff will, like, last

317
00:17:14,972 --> 00:17:18,432
for the long term,
what kind of socio-religious cultural

318
00:17:18,472 --> 00:17:22,392
practices are true,
what kind of books do you want to read,

319
00:17:22,412 --> 00:17:25,872
our spiritual leaders,
how do we ensure maximum freedom.

320
00:17:25,882 --> 00:17:29,592
And machines just don't do that, like...
uh, there's basically no fun involved.

321
00:17:29,692 --> 00:17:31,412
And I have maybe another take

322
00:17:32,232 --> 00:17:32,692
about

323
00:17:33,512 --> 00:17:36,672
the ultimate system of holding back, um,
the future.

324
00:17:36,692 --> 00:17:39,592
Uh, and, and not the future, like, what,
what, what people today think the future

325
00:17:39,632 --> 00:17:43,012
is, but I think I will get to
that after Sam's points.

326
00:17:43,052 --> 00:17:47,042
Okay. Awesome. Uh,
you have definitely given a lot of points,

327
00:17:47,072 --> 00:17:49,512
of which I think I need to think more
about. Yeah.

328
00:17:49,552 --> 00:17:53,212
I think maybe I should start by giving my

329
00:17:53,292 --> 00:17:56,792
points which definitely have some overlap
with yours, then maybe I'll, like,

330
00:17:56,912 --> 00:18:00,252
uh, like, you know,
give my reply to your points more

331
00:18:00,292 --> 00:18:03,632
So the topic is, you know,
why do people hold

332
00:18:03,692 --> 00:18:07,500
back, uh-... I mean, assumes that, look,
okay,

333
00:18:07,540 --> 00:18:11,520
people either want to do more or people,
you know, could be doing more that

334
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,870
they're not even aware of,
but they choose not to.

335
00:18:14,879 --> 00:18:18,180
And then the question is... And, like,
I agree, like,

336
00:18:18,200 --> 00:18:22,090
Like,
most people could be leading way better

337
00:18:22,159 --> 00:18:26,000
do. And better is kind of subjective,
but even by their own idea of what is

338
00:18:26,060 --> 00:18:28,210
better, you know,
most people can be leading better lives.

339
00:18:28,240 --> 00:18:30,760
Even by, you know, my idea of what
is better, you know, most people could be

340
00:18:30,919 --> 00:18:34,580
leading better lives. Like, uh,
I think that's just, like,

341
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:37,580
not even really controversial to say
(laughs) at this point.

342
00:18:37,620 --> 00:18:41,060
Like,
people who are holding back on themselves

343
00:18:41,100 --> 00:18:43,800
back, you know, for X, Y, Z,
whatever reasons, and, you know,

344
00:18:43,820 --> 00:18:46,530
doing more with my, my life." Like,
that's a very common sentiment to hear

345
00:18:46,560 --> 00:18:50,320
people. (laughs) So, yeah, like, this
is definitely obviously true.

346
00:18:50,340 --> 00:18:52,970
We're just probably trying to understand
more deeply in the reasons why is this

347
00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:56,659
even true. Uh, yeah, so I think there is,
like, the more

348
00:18:56,740 --> 00:19:00,460
immediate, like,
local kind of perspective of, you know,

349
00:19:00,480 --> 00:19:04,440
"Oh, I took a corporate job.
Why did I take a corporate job?" Or,

350
00:19:04,480 --> 00:19:07,780
know, do this hobby,
but I chose not to do it," or,

351
00:19:07,820 --> 00:19:09,678
asked that person out,
but I didn't do it," you know.

352
00:19:09,700 --> 00:19:13,120
Like, there's, like,
a very local kind of perspective,

353
00:19:13,139 --> 00:19:17,040
a very global, you know, like, historical,
geopolitical kind

354
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:20,720
of perspective that can actually even
explain a lot of the local stuff.

355
00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:23,920
Like, you know,
if you have to specify as to know,

356
00:19:23,980 --> 00:19:25,270
out on a date?" maybe the actual...

357
00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,550
You can, you can correct
that in your deeper, deeper, you know,

358
00:19:28,600 --> 00:19:32,560
geopolitical or, you know, like,
capitalist, whatever, theory of, you know,

359
00:19:32,600 --> 00:19:35,460
is how society is structured, therefore,
you know, like, people are forming less

360
00:19:35,500 --> 00:19:38,720
relationships or something. Like,
you can analyze it in both ways.

361
00:19:38,740 --> 00:19:41,940
So I think I'll first start with the very
local thing of, you know, just focusing

362
00:19:41,980 --> 00:19:45,240
on one individual and why does
that one individual hold back?

363
00:19:45,340 --> 00:19:49,300
Uh, for an individual, I mean,
people have all sorts of different

364
00:19:49,340 --> 00:19:52,379
models of, you know,
how do you predict human behavior?

365
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,300
Uh, how do you understand human behavior?

366
00:19:54,399 --> 00:19:55,560
Uh, some of those models

367
00:19:56,379 --> 00:19:59,940
I like maybe a little bit less. Uh,
one model I like a lot is basically just

368
00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,020
Maslow's hierarchy, which starts with,
you know, at the lower

369
00:20:04,060 --> 00:20:06,860
levels, like, people's basic needs are,
you know, food, water, shelter.

370
00:20:06,879 --> 00:20:08,860
They need to be protected from violence.

371
00:20:08,899 --> 00:20:12,639
And then at the next level comes, uh,
you know, people

372
00:20:12,720 --> 00:20:16,679
want love, uh, self-esteem.
They want to be respected by other people,

373
00:20:16,700 --> 00:20:20,500
et cetera. Uh, and then at the last comes,
you know, the

374
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:22,970
self-actualization thing, which is, like,
poorly defined.

375
00:20:22,980 --> 00:20:26,600
But basically it's if all of this
was satisfying and you didn't have to

376
00:20:26,620 --> 00:20:28,480
any of this, you know,
what would you naturally do?

377
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:32,340
And, yeah, a lot of people do hypothesize,
like, for a lot of people, that will be

378
00:20:32,379 --> 00:20:35,980
something, like, fun, like,
maybe making art, maybe making games,

379
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:39,560
creating some new ideas, values,
et cetera. Yeah.

380
00:20:39,620 --> 00:20:43,280
I think that's basically true. And, yeah,
so one

381
00:20:43,379 --> 00:20:46,960
explanation for why do people hold back
is because there are actual incentives

382
00:20:46,980 --> 00:20:50,960
are pushing against them that, okay,
if you go outside, you know, what you're

383
00:20:51,000 --> 00:20:54,679
supposed to do, either A,
you will literally starve and

384
00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,379
die, B, you will literally be killed,
you will be imprisoned, or, you know, the

385
00:20:58,399 --> 00:21:02,100
less extreme version of that is, yeah,
like, yeah, you'll be fine, but, you know,

386
00:21:02,139 --> 00:21:04,899
your friends will look at you weird.
Your family will look at you weird.

387
00:21:04,920 --> 00:21:08,899
You'll find it harder to, you know,
make relationships, et cetera, uh,

388
00:21:09,000 --> 00:21:12,879
the system we are in right now.
So I think that is part of the local

389
00:21:13,159 --> 00:21:16,879
kind of perspective.
And then you can ask in a more deeper,

390
00:21:17,360 --> 00:21:20,220
where is all this coming from? Like,
who's threatening violence on you if you,

391
00:21:20,260 --> 00:21:23,179
know, deviate from the script? You know,
who's, you know, withholding love from you

392
00:21:23,220 --> 00:21:26,720
if you deviate from the script?" Uh,
then you can ask those deeper

393
00:21:26,760 --> 00:21:29,639
questions. Uh, I think, yeah, this
is one reason.

394
00:21:29,700 --> 00:21:33,569
Another reason that you can bring up has
nothing

395
00:21:33,639 --> 00:21:36,460
to do with incentives
and more to do with imagination, which

396
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,270
it is outside of people's imagination even
what they could be doing with their

397
00:21:40,320 --> 00:21:44,290
life, which is like, okay,
you have escaped the trap of...

398
00:21:44,340 --> 00:21:47,659
All these traps of, okay, you know, like,
there are basic traps.

399
00:21:47,700 --> 00:21:50,000
Okay,
you do need a certain amount of money to

400
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:51,879
You do need, you know, certain resources.

401
00:21:51,940 --> 00:21:55,720
You do need a country with, you know,
certain amount of law and order so that,

402
00:21:55,780 --> 00:21:58,220
know,
your life is not literally in danger.

403
00:21:58,320 --> 00:22:01,100
Uh,
you do need certain minimum amount of

404
00:22:01,110 --> 00:22:04,040
But once you have all those things, okay,
you might say, "Oh, I'm now free to do

405
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:07,300
whatever I want." But at some level,
you're still l- limited by

406
00:22:07,340 --> 00:22:11,200
imagination. You will still look at, okay,
here are all the ideas of

407
00:22:11,340 --> 00:22:15,260
other people's cool lives. Like, oh,
maybe, you know, this person became a

408
00:22:15,320 --> 00:22:18,659
film star, or this person became a singer,
or, you know, that person became, like,

409
00:22:18,679 --> 00:22:21,159
a digital nomad and he just traveled all
around his whole life.

410
00:22:21,179 --> 00:22:24,069
Like, or, you know,
that person became a philosopher.

411
00:22:24,179 --> 00:22:27,170
Or, like, you will,
you will always have scripts of even...

412
00:22:27,170 --> 00:22:31,080
And even if you're deviating from the
script, there are still, like, here

413
00:22:31,159 --> 00:22:34,560
are the people who have deviated
and those are just new scripts.

414
00:22:34,639 --> 00:22:38,540
And, yeah,
you will by default end up following

415
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:42,020
some mix and match of those.
And definitely your life could still be

416
00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:45,960
But I do want to hypothesize, like,
there are things, like, that

417
00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,800
our imagination. And examples of this are,
like, if you

418
00:22:49,840 --> 00:22:53,699
were living in a society where slavery
was common, it

419
00:22:53,740 --> 00:22:56,720
may have been, like,
literally beyond your imagination that,

420
00:22:56,740 --> 00:22:58,179
society which didn't have slavery.

421
00:22:58,220 --> 00:23:02,080
Like,
that's just so taken for granted for you

422
00:23:02,120 --> 00:23:05,360
this, like, is surprising to you. Like,
I think humanity has made a bunch of

423
00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,120
moral progress. I think this is a general,
uh, you know, lens difference that

424
00:23:09,460 --> 00:23:12,960
Athish and I have, which is, yeah,
I think, you know, the future, uh, the,

425
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,730
are right now is actually a lot better
than the past in a lot of different ways.

426
00:23:15,760 --> 00:23:17,840
And one of those ways, I think,
is moral progress.

427
00:23:17,900 --> 00:23:21,580
I think, uh,
most humans have actually progressed in

428
00:23:21,600 --> 00:23:25,260
moral values in at least some ways
compared to people in many previous

429
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:28,400
civilizations. Uh, yeah, or the fact

430
00:23:28,409 --> 00:23:32,220
that, you know, like, women have rights,
children have more rights as

431
00:23:32,240 --> 00:23:34,730
compared to the, they did in the past.

432
00:23:34,820 --> 00:23:38,429
Uh, yeah, uh, yeah. (laughs)
And definitely, like, even in the past-

433
00:23:38,429 --> 00:23:38,570
(laughs)

434
00:23:38,570 --> 00:23:42,520
... there may have been these, uh, few,
uh, people who realized, okay,

435
00:23:42,560 --> 00:23:45,379
right, like, you know, we have, you know,
democracy in the US, you know, why don't

436
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:47,920
women get to vote? Like,
there must have been a few people asking

437
00:23:47,940 --> 00:23:50,909
But for most people it
was just taken for granted that, look,

438
00:23:50,960 --> 00:23:53,560
person who takes the decisions in the
house, therefore man

439
00:23:53,580 --> 00:23:56,100
the right to vote. You know,
women don't get to vote, et cetera.

440
00:23:56,139 --> 00:24:00,080
So, I think there's a,
definitely another thing of just

441
00:24:00,100 --> 00:24:03,760
think that's been true in the past.
I think that's still true right now.

442
00:24:03,860 --> 00:24:07,760
Uh, yeah, so I think these
are broadly the two things

443
00:24:07,780 --> 00:24:11,580
back. One is just incentives that
are actually actively pushing against

444
00:24:11,620 --> 00:24:14,520
the other is, you know,
imagination deficit, which is, you know,

445
00:24:14,580 --> 00:24:18,500
want to be completely free, uh, they are,
like, actually figuring out new ways

446
00:24:18,560 --> 00:24:20,720
to live is, like,
actually an ongoing project.

447
00:24:20,820 --> 00:24:24,720
Uh, yeah, now if you ask, you know,
more deeper reasons, okay,

448
00:24:24,740 --> 00:24:27,900
why are people being held back? Uh-Yeah.

449
00:24:27,940 --> 00:24:31,860
I mean, obviously, uh, like nation states,
et cetera are a

450
00:24:31,900 --> 00:24:34,960
huge part of it. Like, like, I

451
00:24:35,020 --> 00:24:38,940
mean, I do s-
and I know some people might disagree with

452
00:24:39,000 --> 00:24:42,860
but, like, I fundamentally see, like,
you know, like, like, uh,

453
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:45,500
STEM fields, like, you know, science,
technology, engineering, math is, like,

454
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:48,480
prediction and control of systems not
including human beings.

455
00:24:48,490 --> 00:24:50,910
And, you know, social sciences are, like,
prediction and control of systems

456
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,700
including human beings. And then you ask,
okay, like if you have a social system,

457
00:24:54,720 --> 00:24:57,220
why do you want to predict it?
Why do you want to control it at all?

458
00:24:57,310 --> 00:25:01,149
And the basic answer to that,
at least for me, is to,

459
00:25:01,180 --> 00:25:05,100
like,
troll mankind's incredible capacity for

460
00:25:05,180 --> 00:25:09,160
Uh, I think homo sapiens
is capable of way more violence than

461
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:12,840
any other species on this planet. Like,
you know, chimpanzees are violent.

462
00:25:12,860 --> 00:25:14,510
They are capable of violence. Like,
you can ...

463
00:25:14,520 --> 00:25:17,250
Like, chimpanzees can form a group of,
you know, here are 10 chimpanzees,

464
00:25:17,340 --> 00:25:20,500
the other 10 ch- chimpanzees. You know,
we have a resource scarcity.

465
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,000
Not all of us can have the resources,
therefore we are going to fight for it.

466
00:25:23,020 --> 00:25:26,980
Like, some other species
are capable of this, but, like, humans

467
00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,020
species that is capable of doing this at
scale where we can be like, you know, "We

468
00:25:30,080 --> 00:25:33,280
are literally millions of people here
and we are going to form an army

469
00:25:33,320 --> 00:25:36,780
going to, you know,
colonize the other army, we

470
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:39,600
going to take their stuff," et cetera,
et cetera.

471
00:25:39,720 --> 00:25:43,700
And yeah, therefore, you know,
if you just let humans

472
00:25:43,720 --> 00:25:47,040
do whatever the hell they want,
by default what's going to happen

473
00:25:47,060 --> 00:25:50,040
going to form an army
and just colonize everyone else

474
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:53,220
stuff. Like,
that just happens by default is my

475
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:57,220
stance.
And therefore you need certain social

476
00:25:57,240 --> 00:26:00,820
people in check and to, you know,
restrict people's freedom.

477
00:26:00,879 --> 00:26:04,400
And then there is question of, you know,
what are good social systems to restrict

478
00:26:04,480 --> 00:26:06,460
people's freedom? What
are bad social systems?

479
00:26:06,470 --> 00:26:09,139
Can we make progress in inventing better
s- social systems?

480
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,060
But yeah,
I do basically see nation states as an

481
00:26:13,139 --> 00:26:17,120
as an example of this, you know, churches,
temples as an example of this

482
00:26:17,220 --> 00:26:21,139
where you provide like, here
is the script you need to follow, and if

483
00:26:21,180 --> 00:26:23,080
you deviate from the script you will be
punished.

484
00:26:23,100 --> 00:26:25,920
But as long as you follow the script,
you know, here are the, here

485
00:26:25,940 --> 00:26:27,850
you get within the system. And

486
00:26:28,740 --> 00:26:32,330
I, like, quickly, like b- yeah,
I do think all of this

487
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,029
is true. And, uh, yeah, I mean another ...

488
00:26:36,059 --> 00:26:39,580
Yeah, so this is one thing about,
you know, cont-

489
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:42,650
for violence. And there
are maybe good ways of doing that,

490
00:26:42,760 --> 00:26:46,020
And another thing is to some extent,
I mean, systems are just

491
00:26:46,159 --> 00:26:50,069
uncontrolled,
like the race for accumulating more wealth

492
00:26:50,139 --> 00:26:53,120
resources and power
is just at some level an uncontrolled

493
00:26:53,139 --> 00:26:56,480
It has been at some level uncontrolled in
the past, it is still uncontrolled today.

494
00:26:56,500 --> 00:27:00,340
Like, nobody can control, let's say the,
you know, US China race.

495
00:27:00,360 --> 00:27:02,840
You know, people are trying, but,
you know, here is this one country

496
00:27:02,900 --> 00:27:05,860
more power,
the other country wants more power,

497
00:27:05,880 --> 00:27:09,659
And then that race, you know,
drives pressures further down, which

498
00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:14,520
if let's say this country says, you know,
"I need more," like

499
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,569
this count- like leaders of
that country say, "Okay,

500
00:27:17,659 --> 00:27:20,210
because, you know,
we want our country to be more powerful,"

501
00:27:20,240 --> 00:27:24,020
right,
we also want our companies to compete with

502
00:27:24,060 --> 00:27:27,620
more resources so
that we have more resources."

503
00:27:27,639 --> 00:27:31,500
that pressure downwards of, okay,
so maybe the companies will then go tell

504
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,600
parents, "Okay,
you need to raise your children a certain

505
00:27:34,620 --> 00:27:37,980
certain education system so
that your children produce more resources

506
00:27:38,060 --> 00:27:41,780
produce more resources so
that they produce more resources." Like,

507
00:27:41,820 --> 00:27:43,580
competitive cycle that gets set up.

508
00:27:43,620 --> 00:27:47,000
And I agree as a result people end up

509
00:27:47,080 --> 00:27:51,000
optimized on very certain narrow metrics
of like, like people

510
00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:54,960
are s- seen by, by many of these systems,
people are seen as valuable only

511
00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,860
based on financially how valuable they
are. I ...

512
00:27:57,900 --> 00:28:00,840
That ends up, you know,
lobotomizing a lot of people's freedom.

513
00:28:00,900 --> 00:28:04,870
I think that's basically true. Yeah,
I think that's at a high level, you know,

514
00:28:04,900 --> 00:28:08,690
my perspective.
I'm curious what you think about all of

515
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:09,280
this.

516
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:11,420
Oh, we're on time too. (laughs) Okay.
Yeah.

517
00:28:11,460 --> 00:28:13,960
Great, um, uh, articles out there.

518
00:28:14,120 --> 00:28:17,400
Um, I think the reason ...
And I think this is a good place to start.

519
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:21,300
I think the reason we disagree on, like,
why we think the

520
00:28:21,340 --> 00:28:24,440
past ... Uh, no,
I sort of think the past was an excellent

521
00:28:24,520 --> 00:28:27,889
place, and the f- the future
is a very different kind...

522
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:31,159
I mean, the present and the future
is a very different kind of thing,

523
00:28:31,300 --> 00:28:35,200
is that in the past, um, you

524
00:28:35,220 --> 00:28:38,659
know, humans were not one big

525
00:28:38,940 --> 00:28:42,760
chunk, right?
It's not like all of us sort of

526
00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,440
one thing and then the rest of us believed
something else.

527
00:28:45,500 --> 00:28:48,740
You know, even back in the day as,
as literally as soon as language has

528
00:28:48,800 --> 00:28:52,480
existed, we all sort of

529
00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,330
understood that like, okay,
well other people exist and other people

530
00:28:56,400 --> 00:29:00,139
can talk and other people can like say
things that they don't really mean, which

531
00:29:00,180 --> 00:29:04,120
means there must be some people who like
don't believe the things

532
00:29:04,260 --> 00:29:06,250
I'm saying or things I believe.
You know what I mean?

533
00:29:06,260 --> 00:29:08,470
Like,
philosophy is a completely normal ...

534
00:29:08,480 --> 00:29:11,240
People sort of act like, "Oh, this
is something only the French (laughs) have

535
00:29:11,260 --> 00:29:14,880
of managed to come up with." Uh, but,
but asking the question of like why do we

536
00:29:14,900 --> 00:29:18,400
know what we know is ... It's fundamental,
like it's primal, right?

537
00:29:18,420 --> 00:29:21,179
Like e- ev- y- you ...
The second you start talking to a kid,

538
00:29:21,220 --> 00:29:24,860
asking like all kinds of questions like,
"Hey, you know, wh- what do you believe?

539
00:29:24,980 --> 00:29:28,690
Why do you believe that thing? You know,
wh- what's that?" And kids believe all

540
00:29:28,740 --> 00:29:32,150
kinds of completely insane nonsense stuff,
but they are sort of trying to create

541
00:29:32,180 --> 00:29:34,960
like a coherent model, as
are the rest of us.

542
00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,300
Um, you know, someone might argue
that like the modern

543
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,230
eras, uh, is the most coherent. You know,
we have science and we have

544
00:29:42,260 --> 00:29:45,200
technology and we have all of this stuff.

545
00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:48,800
And to which I'd say, I mean,
if we have all this science

546
00:29:48,840 --> 00:29:52,060
technology stuff, why
are people still living such

547
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:55,600
broadly, like, unfulfilling lives? I mean,
why do so many people ...

548
00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,780
why are so many people still poor
if we have a surplus of food?

549
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,860
Why are people starved to death?
And you might say that like, "Oh, well,

550
00:30:02,940 --> 00:30:06,040
go around feeding everybody.
That's socialism." Mm, you know,

551
00:30:06,060 --> 00:30:07,520
pretty good job feeding everybody.

552
00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:11,520
Um, you know, most cultures,
a lot of the cultures that,

553
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:12,880
day, they were, were able to

554
00:30:13,860 --> 00:30:17,659
basically create like complicated
construction,

555
00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:21,020
Uh, the pyramids, for example, you know,
everybody knows that they hired like

556
00:30:21,480 --> 00:30:21,780
the,

557
00:30:22,659 --> 00:30:26,330
the basically paid their labor really well
and had skilled artisans telling other

558
00:30:26,340 --> 00:30:29,470
people. What a lot of people don't know
is that like there

559
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:30,960
of some of them. On the outside, there
was nothing.

560
00:30:30,980 --> 00:30:34,540
On the inside, there was some graffiti,
which is, which is kind of point that like

561
00:30:34,560 --> 00:30:38,060
humans have always been like these
insanely like imaginative and like,

562
00:30:38,100 --> 00:30:40,860
thinking creatures.
And I think that's truly something

563
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,812
everybody else, right? We play,
we come up with jokes, we ...... jokes,

564
00:30:44,822 --> 00:30:48,282
Like, like, that, that...
have you ever heard a chimpanzee tell a

565
00:30:48,282 --> 00:30:49,881
(laughs) it wouldn't be very funny.

566
00:30:49,932 --> 00:30:53,202
Be like, "Oh,
where's the banana?" (laughs) You always

567
00:30:53,351 --> 00:30:56,141
complicated kinds of jokes.
That's why that's something I believe,

568
00:30:56,212 --> 00:30:59,252
think the past was a monolith,
the way I don't think the present

569
00:30:59,272 --> 00:31:01,172
I think the present
is actually a lot more monolithic, right?

570
00:31:01,192 --> 00:31:04,861
Because more people than ever live in
cities and more people than ever do very

571
00:31:04,891 --> 00:31:07,851
similar kinds of jobs. Um,
and not just jobs.

572
00:31:07,871 --> 00:31:11,482
You can perceive the job as,
as a very weirdly specific thing, which is

573
00:31:11,512 --> 00:31:14,952
that you go somewhere or,
or like somebody tells you what to do

574
00:31:14,962 --> 00:31:17,351
of vaguely create economic value.

575
00:31:17,371 --> 00:31:21,062
You know, advertising is like, well,
like 10 people saw this ad

576
00:31:21,091 --> 00:31:23,932
like one person clicked on it,
so like my job is like good.

577
00:31:23,952 --> 00:31:27,111
And it's like, well, the platform
that did that has to deliver it

578
00:31:27,172 --> 00:31:29,022
that. You know,
it just works (inaudible) .

579
00:31:29,032 --> 00:31:32,371
When, when,
when people sort of use Marx and say, "Oh,

580
00:31:32,412 --> 00:31:34,752
work," I,
I don't think that's what Marx meant at

581
00:31:34,792 --> 00:31:37,932
I think he was talking more about like the
kind of people who come up with like the

582
00:31:38,072 --> 00:31:41,672
design of the factory are like extremely,
like, like way more like

583
00:31:41,692 --> 00:31:44,952
important than the people who
are like funding the building of

584
00:31:44,972 --> 00:31:48,262
Because, right,
if you don't know how to build

585
00:31:48,291 --> 00:31:50,702
know (inaudible) .
That's what he means by abstract work.

586
00:31:50,792 --> 00:31:54,732
So it's like abstractly related to the
thing you're actually doing, as opposed

587
00:31:54,752 --> 00:31:57,912
to like abstractly made, you know,
sort of far, far away.

588
00:31:57,972 --> 00:32:01,312
And this is actually where
that point about like local perspective I

589
00:32:01,452 --> 00:32:05,432
really important. Um,
we really do live in an information age,

590
00:32:05,472 --> 00:32:09,432
right? I am with you,
and I think the modern era is

591
00:32:09,512 --> 00:32:13,032
vaguely postmodern in that, uh, va-
You know, I, I don't believe

592
00:32:13,052 --> 00:32:15,631
going around like, you know,
creating their personal brands,

593
00:32:15,672 --> 00:32:19,492
like people are trying to figure out
something new or something only

594
00:32:19,572 --> 00:32:21,432
they know and then try to express
that to the world.

595
00:32:21,452 --> 00:32:24,891
Everybody's trying that all the time. Uh,
usually people fail, and that's fine.

596
00:32:24,902 --> 00:32:28,371
Uh, there's no issue there. Um, but, you

597
00:32:28,391 --> 00:32:32,152
know, if you've read de Cuzco, um,
you know, even like

598
00:32:32,212 --> 00:32:36,152
insane, especially insane people,
like know that they're acting out

599
00:32:36,212 --> 00:32:40,091
of some, some reason, some structure
or something

600
00:32:40,131 --> 00:32:41,611
that they can't really explain to you.

601
00:32:41,631 --> 00:32:44,052
It's like the voice in their head told
them like something insane.

602
00:32:44,062 --> 00:32:46,312
But like, you know,
there's reasons why

603
00:32:46,331 --> 00:32:50,322
first place, right? Like, it
was probably a response to some traumatic

604
00:32:50,432 --> 00:32:54,121
started talking to them,
and then what this person thinks is a, is

605
00:32:54,251 --> 00:32:57,641
a, is just a voice in your head
is probably actually just like a response.

606
00:32:57,672 --> 00:33:00,871
I mean, you know,
humans have a very interesting response,

607
00:33:00,891 --> 00:33:04,380
you start moving,
second you start walking,

608
00:33:04,380 --> 00:33:07,942
take a little process like,
like hearing the same way you do

609
00:33:08,032 --> 00:33:11,952
down, um, when you stop moving. Uh,
even when you start talking,

610
00:33:12,032 --> 00:33:14,141
of suppresses it by thought,
what other people are saying.

611
00:33:14,192 --> 00:33:16,641
And it's probably some of these wires
getting crossed in your head.

612
00:33:16,672 --> 00:33:19,821
I'm not saying it's just trauma,
but people have really good reasons why

613
00:33:19,871 --> 00:33:22,452
they're, why they're doing stuff.

614
00:33:22,472 --> 00:33:26,272
And in the current like sort of global,
global, like

615
00:33:26,292 --> 00:33:28,712
perspec- If,
if you want to move away from the local

616
00:33:28,732 --> 00:33:32,472
perspective, what should happen is
that all kinds of

617
00:33:32,532 --> 00:33:36,172
people know all kinds of really cool
and weird things and are able to

618
00:33:36,272 --> 00:33:39,812
implement them by traveling
or by coming up with like

619
00:33:40,692 --> 00:33:44,652
new creative stuff
or by being able to organize in really

620
00:33:44,672 --> 00:33:48,132
ways. Instead,
you have most people trying to like,

621
00:33:48,152 --> 00:33:51,331
corporate, um,
and everybody in corporate trying to get

622
00:33:51,391 --> 00:33:53,591
Um, you know,
I kind of like the way Peter Feaver

623
00:33:53,632 --> 00:33:56,502
everybody on the inside
is trying to get in

624
00:33:56,512 --> 00:33:58,831
the outside is trying to get in,
and everybody on the outside

625
00:33:58,851 --> 00:34:01,132
And the real answer
is just like walk out the front door.

626
00:34:01,182 --> 00:34:04,692
Which brings me to this point
that you sort of mentioned that like,

627
00:34:04,831 --> 00:34:07,371
have progressed in terms of freedom.

628
00:34:07,452 --> 00:34:11,342
And freedom isn't rights. Free-
freedom isn't like somebody else telling

629
00:34:11,351 --> 00:34:15,212
can like do this or do that. Right? Um,
every right comes with like an

630
00:34:15,272 --> 00:34:17,152
obligation. Every right comes with a duty.

631
00:34:17,252 --> 00:34:20,792
Um, we, in the modern era especially,
we've, we conceive of rights

632
00:34:20,831 --> 00:34:23,741
as like the counterpart to like duties,
right?

633
00:34:23,741 --> 00:34:26,451
Like, you have to do this
and so we'll give you that.

634
00:34:26,511 --> 00:34:30,411
And the argument basically went that like,
um, look,

635
00:34:30,451 --> 00:34:33,672
it's only like landed white men in
America, for example,

636
00:34:33,692 --> 00:34:36,831
the running of the society.
And so they are the only ones who should

637
00:34:36,851 --> 00:34:39,462
you know, they control the land and,
you know, they control the slaves,

638
00:34:39,471 --> 00:34:43,312
the working population.
So they should be the ones who decide how

639
00:34:43,351 --> 00:34:46,411
policy and, you know,
where people can go and the basic things,

640
00:34:46,431 --> 00:34:50,331
an H2O, how, how to shut that gas H.
In India, I mean, there

641
00:34:50,371 --> 00:34:53,991
democracy, right? The kings,
like the warriors

642
00:34:54,011 --> 00:34:57,552
this like collusion to be like, "Oh,
you know, we just control, like,

643
00:34:57,592 --> 00:35:01,291
like labor and we control like where
people stay." Uh, we control labor through

644
00:35:01,312 --> 00:35:05,252
like priestly stuff and we control, um,
land through like kingly stuff.

645
00:35:05,272 --> 00:35:09,192
And then so we have like kingdoms vaguely
where people can like go back and

646
00:35:09,232 --> 00:35:11,752
forth between each other.
And clearly we didn't like that.

647
00:35:11,812 --> 00:35:14,452
Uh, a lot of people, like I said,
rebelled against the British.

648
00:35:15,372 --> 00:35:18,592
And so this idea of like freedom sort of
progressing in tiers

649
00:35:19,272 --> 00:35:21,992
doesn't really hold water to me because
obviously people are still like

650
00:35:22,032 --> 00:35:24,582
ridiculously unfree, like fai- Like, yeah,
obviously.

651
00:35:24,612 --> 00:35:28,162
I mean, you know, we
are having this discussion in the context

652
00:35:28,252 --> 00:35:31,532
super intelligence showing up
and taking away all of our freedom

653
00:35:31,652 --> 00:35:34,152
being able to say anything. Can say like,
"No, we don't want that.

654
00:35:34,162 --> 00:35:37,892
We don't want it involved in our goddamn
life." Um, which makes me feel obviously

655
00:35:37,952 --> 00:35:39,882
as if we're, we're not really free.

656
00:35:39,971 --> 00:35:43,322
So this idea that like, you know,
we have to come up with all these like

657
00:35:43,372 --> 00:35:46,852
structures so that like our capacity for
violence gets

658
00:35:46,912 --> 00:35:50,092
suppressed, that makes like, that, that...
I, I kind of think- Yeah. ...

659
00:35:50,112 --> 00:35:54,032
that's backwards, right?
Because like no matter how angry I

660
00:35:54,092 --> 00:35:57,892
get personally, right,
I can only commit like X

661
00:35:57,952 --> 00:36:01,852
amount of violence against you. But
if I go tell my brother that like, "Hey, I

662
00:36:01,892 --> 00:36:05,232
really hate this guy," I can be able to do
like X square violence, like maybe like,

663
00:36:05,252 --> 00:36:07,822
you know,
the two of us can coordinate really well

664
00:36:07,872 --> 00:36:11,172
like bar the door so I at least set Sina's
like house on fire.

665
00:36:11,292 --> 00:36:14,532
Uh, you know, we, you know,
we emotionally, we feel this way.

666
00:36:14,551 --> 00:36:18,032
But like I'm really only able to build a
structure

667
00:36:18,392 --> 00:36:21,372
based on how many people I can convince,
you know, you have around me.

668
00:36:22,051 --> 00:36:25,872
That's not how states work at all.
I think a lot of people just like

669
00:36:25,892 --> 00:36:28,172
the state to mean like their parents.

670
00:36:28,182 --> 00:36:28,772
(laughs)

671
00:36:28,792 --> 00:36:28,952
(laughs)

672
00:36:28,971 --> 00:36:32,032
Uh,
a lot of people just like extrapolate the

673
00:36:32,051 --> 00:36:35,511
individuals,
like agreeing to like certain standards,

674
00:36:35,551 --> 00:36:38,082
for like arbitrary violence, right?

675
00:36:38,112 --> 00:36:41,912
It allows for people to be like,
"I don't care what

676
00:36:41,992 --> 00:36:44,952
you have to say,
I'm just going to like blow you up

677
00:36:44,992 --> 00:36:48,772
me and pay taxes to me
and give me your food and like, you know,

678
00:36:48,892 --> 00:36:51,710
oil or give me like your..." The people
have to like work....

679
00:36:51,740 --> 00:36:53,909
to provide goods and services to me.

680
00:36:53,940 --> 00:36:55,720
You know, to, to me and my country
and to my people.

681
00:36:55,759 --> 00:36:59,549
And they, it, it's simply that,
this idea of, like,

682
00:36:59,660 --> 00:37:03,600
arbitrary violence, right? Like,
a soldier in this army can kill a soldier

683
00:37:03,660 --> 00:37:05,660
army and it's not really personal.

684
00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,440
This is the same reason why, like,
corporations in the civic

685
00:37:09,759 --> 00:37:13,670
space, uh, are able to, like,
make people really afraid because it's

686
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:16,620
I don't work hard at my job, right,
if I don't, like, produce these reports or

687
00:37:16,660 --> 00:37:20,400
install these, like, programs or, like,
um, do my

688
00:37:20,460 --> 00:37:24,380
job super well, like, the other people
are gonna make more money and they're

689
00:37:24,420 --> 00:37:28,400
obviously gonna win.
And it becomes who can, like,

690
00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:31,900
best services, who can scare you,
who can undercut the other guy.

691
00:37:31,920 --> 00:37:34,700
And it doesn't make anybody more free.

692
00:37:34,740 --> 00:37:38,360
It just makes arbitrary violence,
you know, economic vi- uh,

693
00:37:38,840 --> 00:37:42,420
in this case, just more likely.
It means that the small

694
00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:46,279
players, you know, who cater to, like,
maybe, like, two or three clients or,

695
00:37:46,299 --> 00:37:49,610
you know,
who have no clients at all to sit around

696
00:37:49,620 --> 00:37:52,900
security guards or as, like, shopkeepers,
you know, who have a lot of stuff but

697
00:37:52,920 --> 00:37:56,380
can't, like, sell it, like, well enough.
I mean, this stuff sucks.

698
00:37:56,420 --> 00:38:00,410
No- nobody... No, no, no, no.
Nobody's actually, like, arguing that,

699
00:38:00,420 --> 00:38:03,870
know, if we redistributed, like, you know,
if we, if we, if we just,

700
00:38:03,920 --> 00:38:06,450
like, you know... Yeah. I mean, I'm,
I'm...

701
00:38:06,540 --> 00:38:10,360
That's my point that, like, I don't think,
like, as a whole, our freedom

702
00:38:10,460 --> 00:38:11,899
may have gotten bigger, but

703
00:38:12,740 --> 00:38:13,940
on the day-to-day, I mean,

704
00:38:14,900 --> 00:38:15,290
it, it, it

705
00:38:16,259 --> 00:38:19,820
really just is, you know, like, a problem,
like, an actual problem.

706
00:38:19,900 --> 00:38:23,390
Uh, and this is the kind of system
that a super intelligence...

707
00:38:23,400 --> 00:38:27,020
Where a super intelligent system starts
making sense because it's like, what if it

708
00:38:27,040 --> 00:38:30,850
can give us our freedom back? And, like,
it can't. Obviously, it can't.

709
00:38:30,860 --> 00:38:34,470
It's, it's,
it's the apotheosis of the system, not,

710
00:38:34,500 --> 00:38:37,620
Yeah,
I'm realizing because the points you've

711
00:38:37,740 --> 00:38:41,299
political, I'm worried our debate
is just going to

712
00:38:41,340 --> 00:38:45,080
devolve into a... Either a, you know,
pro capitalism versus

713
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:46,980
anti-capitalism debate or pro

714
00:38:47,980 --> 00:38:51,240
anarchism versus pro-democracy,
pro-nation state kind of

715
00:38:51,279 --> 00:38:52,450
debate. And

716
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,799
I feel like those debates have been done
to death (laughs) and I'm not sure we'll

717
00:38:56,820 --> 00:38:59,180
have any new points to contribute.

718
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,080
But maybe I will start by saying I,
I think, yeah, I think w- what I am

719
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:04,660
hearing is, like, you

720
00:39:05,460 --> 00:39:09,240
have essentially, uh,
an anarchist leaning.

721
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:12,340
I, I don't know, like,
after synthesizing all your ideas what's

722
00:39:12,380 --> 00:39:16,000
position, but, like,
you seem sympathetic to anarchism,

723
00:39:16,020 --> 00:39:19,500
sympathetic to Marxism. Uh, yeah, I

724
00:39:19,600 --> 00:39:22,140
basically, I love democracy.
I love capitalism.

725
00:39:22,160 --> 00:39:25,520
I think capitalism
is one of the greatest things humanity has

726
00:39:25,529 --> 00:39:29,380
done. Yeah, so I mean, my leaning is,
yeah, I basically, I love democracy.

727
00:39:29,420 --> 00:39:32,840
I love capitalism.
I think most of the good things in my life

728
00:39:32,880 --> 00:39:35,720
result of democracy
or capitalism indirectly.

729
00:39:35,740 --> 00:39:38,759
Like, if these systems were not invented,
I would probably have been literally

730
00:39:38,800 --> 00:39:41,980
living under a king. My life, like,
at least politically would have been a lot

731
00:39:42,020 --> 00:39:45,440
worse,
even if economically I may have had

732
00:39:45,480 --> 00:39:49,160
Yeah, that's just my leaning. And, like,
at, at least from the start.

733
00:39:49,200 --> 00:39:53,020
And obviously,
we both seem to agree at some

734
00:39:53,060 --> 00:39:53,770
level that

735
00:39:54,779 --> 00:39:57,960
if we do have, you know,
an AI that's better than everyone at

736
00:39:58,000 --> 00:40:01,080
going to, at least in some ways,
fundamentally change our society.

737
00:40:01,140 --> 00:40:03,720
And we both seem to agree in a bad way.

738
00:40:03,800 --> 00:40:07,660
And my current answer to that is more

739
00:40:07,720 --> 00:40:11,120
like, as of right now, let's just ban AI

740
00:40:11,200 --> 00:40:14,960
specifically but keep, you know,
capitalism and democracy still running.

741
00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,240
And, you know, in future,
if we can invent a better social system,

742
00:40:18,300 --> 00:40:19,880
great, you know,
it's really important to do.

743
00:40:19,900 --> 00:40:23,880
But I am not willing to immediately say,
you know, "Oh, capitalism bad because

744
00:40:23,940 --> 00:40:27,880
capitalism leads to AI." It is true
that capitalism leads to AI but I'm not

745
00:40:27,940 --> 00:40:31,200
willing to say, "Just because AI bad,
therefore capitalism bad." Like, I'm not

746
00:40:31,220 --> 00:40:34,660
willing to make that...
I'm not willing to go

747
00:40:34,700 --> 00:40:35,540
recognizing that

748
00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:40,340
most of the good things in my life,
at least materially,

749
00:40:40,360 --> 00:40:42,880
non-material things also come out from the
material things.

750
00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:46,840
I think, like,
Marx actually makes a bunch of these

751
00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:51,160
technology gives you excess resources
and excess resources do actually

752
00:40:51,200 --> 00:40:53,100
bring, you know, actual human happiness.

753
00:40:53,180 --> 00:40:57,040
And yeah, like, him and, you know,
a bunch of other thinkers do see it as,

754
00:40:57,080 --> 00:41:00,960
okay,
now AI is the ultimate endpoint of that,

755
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,759
everything, you get, you know,
this one machine

756
00:41:03,860 --> 00:41:06,980
resources. But also, you know,
Marx specifically doesn't make this point,

757
00:41:07,040 --> 00:41:10,620
but this is the point
that people have made

758
00:41:10,660 --> 00:41:14,340
resources,
also therefore infinite control for,

759
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:17,520
controls the AI.
I think that's something we do agree on.

760
00:41:17,580 --> 00:41:19,480
Uh, okay,
so now that's just our broader lens.

761
00:41:19,520 --> 00:41:23,400
Now, coming very specifically, uh,
to some of the points you

762
00:41:23,460 --> 00:41:26,759
made. Uh, yeah, you were saying, yeah,
regarding,

763
00:41:26,860 --> 00:41:30,450
uh... Yeah, like, uh, yeah,
I think this is basically one of

764
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:34,160
standard my,
one of my standard critics to anarchism.

765
00:41:34,220 --> 00:41:38,080
I think, uh, you were basically saying,
okay, like, people initially start, you

766
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:41,270
know, like, as individuals, as free,
or maybe they then form, you know,

767
00:41:41,279 --> 00:41:43,160
relationships, form groups or whatever.

768
00:41:43,180 --> 00:41:46,960
But the idea of the nation state is, like,
not been, like, always

769
00:41:46,980 --> 00:41:49,120
there. It's... It hasn't always been true,
I think.

770
00:41:49,140 --> 00:41:51,720
And I'm rephrasing you,
I could be rephrasing incorrectly.

771
00:41:51,759 --> 00:41:55,690
Like, it hasn't always been true
that humans, if you leave them free,

772
00:41:55,700 --> 00:41:58,990
they will form a group of millions of
people and form a nation state and,

773
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,520
go pillage the other group's stuff.

774
00:42:00,560 --> 00:42:03,870
Like, that isn't the default
is I think something you're saying.

775
00:42:03,940 --> 00:42:06,800
And I am saying, no, that actually
is the default.

776
00:42:06,860 --> 00:42:10,220
If you leave a bunch of humans free, like,
eventually some of them are going to

777
00:42:10,240 --> 00:42:11,440
form a big group and they
are going to try to kill-

778
00:42:11,460 --> 00:42:14,870
No, I'm, I'm not saying that. I'm,
I'm not, I'm not not saying that.

779
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:16,219
Then maybe I'll just say my point
and then-

780
00:42:16,230 --> 00:42:16,550
I'm, I'm just not, not saying that.

781
00:42:16,550 --> 00:42:19,680
... you can reply. Fair enough.
When you reply,

782
00:42:19,700 --> 00:42:23,100
But I am claiming, yeah, if you have,
like, a bunch of humans,

783
00:42:23,120 --> 00:42:23,880
to do whatever-

784
00:42:23,890 --> 00:42:24,540
Yeah, of course.

785
00:42:24,550 --> 00:42:28,540
... their default outcome for humans
is always, like, a bun- set of

786
00:42:28,560 --> 00:42:32,060
humans will decide, "Oh, right,
if we form a group,

787
00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:35,220
If we are more powerful,
we can go take the other people's stuff

788
00:42:35,240 --> 00:42:38,340
we'll be at the top of the social
hierarchy, they will respect us,

789
00:42:38,380 --> 00:42:41,500
more resources,
we will have all the women." I just think

790
00:42:41,520 --> 00:42:45,080
default. You can't not do that. Like,
like, at least if I look at

791
00:42:45,279 --> 00:42:48,980
literally all of human history, like,
it seems very difficult to prevent

792
00:42:49,020 --> 00:42:52,464
humans from doing that. I'm like,
you know,

793
00:42:52,484 --> 00:42:54,534
like, okay, look, given that
is the default...

794
00:42:54,534 --> 00:42:58,384
And obviously, then
that spirals into an arms race because

795
00:42:58,464 --> 00:43:01,274
there decides, "Oh, we want to, you know,
form the violent army and, you know, take

796
00:43:01,284 --> 00:43:04,884
care of everyone else," then the other
humans also decide, "All right,

797
00:43:04,904 --> 00:43:07,464
going to form the army and, you know,
pillage everyone, then, you know, we also

798
00:43:07,484 --> 00:43:11,444
need to form an army to defend ourselves."
And then it becomes that army

799
00:43:11,454 --> 00:43:14,824
thinks, "Oh, right,
if we had a bunch of technology, we could,

800
00:43:14,864 --> 00:43:17,874
them in spite of their whatever numbers."
And then this side says, "Oh, right,

801
00:43:17,904 --> 00:43:21,304
therefore we also need to race them on
technology." And then, yeah, that just

802
00:43:21,324 --> 00:43:22,884
becomes an arms race. So

803
00:43:23,724 --> 00:43:27,164
yeah, I just see this as, like,
default and then there is

804
00:43:27,244 --> 00:43:31,164
like... Yeah, then for me,
the only question is like, you, look,

805
00:43:31,224 --> 00:43:34,424
sapiens always does this, you know,
can we do anything better than this?

806
00:43:34,464 --> 00:43:38,244
And for me, then, you know, having, uh,
like a

807
00:43:38,284 --> 00:43:41,904
nation state that's even somewhat
democratic is better than, you know, just

808
00:43:41,964 --> 00:43:45,924
one, uh, emperor deciding, "You know,
all of you are my subjects, you know,

809
00:43:46,084 --> 00:43:49,544
I decide you go to war,
therefore you go to war." Versus,

810
00:43:49,604 --> 00:43:53,424
system would be like the group as a whole
decides, okay, like if

811
00:43:53,484 --> 00:43:56,994
actually we are like, like... Yeah,
the group as a whole decides that,

812
00:43:57,024 --> 00:43:59,744
whether we want to go to war or not,
as opposed to, you know,

813
00:43:59,804 --> 00:44:02,944
top deciding it. Like,
I think that's marginally better.

814
00:44:02,964 --> 00:44:06,534
Yeah, and similarly with companies, uh,

815
00:44:06,904 --> 00:44:08,424
yeah, actually, no, the companies 0.03-

816
00:44:08,444 --> 00:44:09,404
You know, um-

817
00:44:09,414 --> 00:44:12,964
Yeah, I think, uh, another point
which you made was regarding scale.

818
00:44:13,084 --> 00:44:16,924
I think it is definitely true
that technology increases the scale at

819
00:44:16,984 --> 00:44:17,194
which-

820
00:44:17,224 --> 00:44:17,234
Oh.

821
00:44:17,234 --> 00:44:21,084
... we can...
I think you did make a point around, like,

822
00:44:21,164 --> 00:44:21,254
Uh-

823
00:44:21,254 --> 00:44:23,604
... are violent to small companies,
like economically.

824
00:44:23,624 --> 00:44:24,144
Big companies-

825
00:44:24,164 --> 00:44:27,594
Yeah, but in a very specific way.
I wasn't just implying that, like, oh,

826
00:44:27,644 --> 00:44:29,924
evil.
I think they do something very specific.

827
00:44:29,934 --> 00:44:32,184
And I don't think it's just like economic
violence.

828
00:44:32,204 --> 00:44:36,124
I think it's like the, the,
the price of losing in

829
00:44:36,144 --> 00:44:40,084
the market is boredom, right?
If I open a kirana store and the

830
00:44:40,124 --> 00:44:43,174
guy opposite me, like,
opens a kirana store, only one of us gets

831
00:44:43,704 --> 00:44:47,034
customers and stuff. Then, like the,
the one who's, like, losing

832
00:44:47,064 --> 00:44:50,884
like, basically has to, like,
eat a loss and has to, like, do

833
00:44:50,944 --> 00:44:54,404
nothing all day and, like,
feel like a failure.

834
00:44:54,444 --> 00:44:57,264
And not just feel like a failure,
actually be the failure.

835
00:44:57,424 --> 00:45:00,584
Someone might say that's he's still
choosing to do that, right?

836
00:45:00,604 --> 00:45:03,744
He's, he's still choosing to do
that there, but if, if that's the, like,

837
00:45:03,864 --> 00:45:04,944
mode by which people

838
00:45:05,884 --> 00:45:09,644
go about their, like, daily life,
you know, stick themselves behind, like, a

839
00:45:09,684 --> 00:45:12,324
counter or behind a desk
or behind something and then just

840
00:45:13,144 --> 00:45:16,394
do that, like, all day, like, have,
feeling like they have no other choice.

841
00:45:16,404 --> 00:45:20,384
Like, like,
it doesn't seem like a form of violence,

842
00:45:20,424 --> 00:45:23,753
that person's entire...
If you look at the fact that, you know,

843
00:45:23,784 --> 00:45:26,184
like, not just a...
I don't say they have a soul

844
00:45:26,244 --> 00:45:29,244
intangible. But, like, everyone has, like,
places they want to visit.

845
00:45:29,344 --> 00:45:32,054
Anybody knows that, like, people
are happy when they're, like, traveling,

846
00:45:32,084 --> 00:45:35,044
People know, are happy when they're, like,
talking to a lot of people.

847
00:45:35,424 --> 00:45:39,174
Jealousy and rage and... Th- this stuff
is all fine. I'm just...

848
00:45:39,184 --> 00:45:43,104
My question, my critique is not, uh,
violence, big companies

849
00:45:43,144 --> 00:45:46,164
get to do violence to small companies
and it's 0.01.

850
00:45:46,424 --> 00:45:49,114
I, I, I'm just saying that, like,
I think a lot of times...

851
00:45:49,404 --> 00:45:51,704
And I'm so sorry if it seems like I've cut
you off.

852
00:45:51,764 --> 00:45:55,724
If it is the default that, like,
humans gather in big groups and wipe

853
00:45:55,764 --> 00:45:59,154
each other out, why
are there so many tribes and

854
00:45:59,264 --> 00:46:03,204
cultures and, and,
and groups of people that, like,

855
00:46:03,224 --> 00:46:06,684
you know, between themselves be like,
"Okay, well, we don't like that,

856
00:46:06,704 --> 00:46:09,884
of people, but we do really like
that group of people." Though all of us

857
00:46:09,944 --> 00:46:11,584
separate, like, we, we like those people,
right?

858
00:46:11,624 --> 00:46:14,044
Like, that's a king over there and this
is a king over here and this is the people

859
00:46:14,224 --> 00:46:17,764
over here. Um, we don't just go around,
like, randomly

860
00:46:17,844 --> 00:46:20,644
conquering people. We just don't do that.

861
00:46:20,704 --> 00:46:24,444
I mean, I mean, there's,
there's very little examples of people

862
00:46:24,464 --> 00:46:27,894
know, smashing each other over the head,
like, hating each other, like, all the

863
00:46:27,944 --> 00:46:31,894
time, right? Um, I understand
that your point is more about like,

864
00:46:31,984 --> 00:46:35,184
on the macro level, that's what happens.
That was Marx's point as well.

865
00:46:35,204 --> 00:46:39,024
But I mean, just to be fair, I mean, a lo-
a lot of us anarchists have a real

866
00:46:39,064 --> 00:46:42,304
big bone to pick with Marx because, like,
for example, by the

867
00:46:42,344 --> 00:46:45,084
way, he literally called, like,

868
00:46:46,004 --> 00:46:49,424
China and India, like,
irrelevant to the question of, like,

869
00:46:49,484 --> 00:46:52,864
because they follow what's called the
Asiatic mode of production.

870
00:46:52,904 --> 00:46:54,724
Which is like an insane oversight, right?

871
00:46:54,744 --> 00:46:57,364
Which is like, if you
were any kind of person who likes

872
00:46:57,404 --> 00:47:00,924
history of, like, um, India or China,
you'd be like, "These are very different

873
00:47:00,984 --> 00:47:03,484
countries.
These are extremely different countries."

874
00:47:03,494 --> 00:47:03,544
Right.

875
00:47:03,564 --> 00:47:06,944
I'm simply an agrarian. Uh, you know,
they came up with all kinds of, like,

876
00:47:06,964 --> 00:47:10,413
political, uh, their own, like,
normal political ideas and systems and,

877
00:47:10,444 --> 00:47:12,864
they had, like, histories where they,
like, agreed and disagreed and, like,

878
00:47:12,924 --> 00:47:16,084
self-consciously created, like,
like structures in and around them.

879
00:47:16,184 --> 00:47:19,024
Uh, and,
and saw different things as valuable at

880
00:47:19,064 --> 00:47:21,644
Of course they did. Like,
what the hell are you talking about?

881
00:47:21,704 --> 00:47:25,504
Uh, you can't just say that, like,
there's the machine mode and there's the,

882
00:47:25,524 --> 00:47:28,824
mode and there's the capitalist mode
and the socialist mode

883
00:47:28,884 --> 00:47:32,264
So humans getting in big groups and,
and then just smashing each other over the

884
00:47:32,284 --> 00:47:36,264
head is not the default, nor is it stages

885
00:47:36,304 --> 00:47:39,674
of history, right? Where, like,
at some point we were like, we were like

886
00:47:39,724 --> 00:47:42,934
monkeys and then we turned... Like,
we weren't monkeys, now we've turned into,

887
00:47:42,964 --> 00:47:46,084
like, cool, intelligent people.
Now we've turned into something else.

888
00:47:46,204 --> 00:47:48,224
Um, true. I mean, it's just not true.

889
00:47:48,244 --> 00:47:51,824
People are always self-consciously aware
of what they want to and don't want to do.

890
00:47:51,924 --> 00:47:55,864
Uh, you know, uh, farming
is very different from gardening and peop-

891
00:47:55,924 --> 00:47:58,004
both and, you know, the gardener effect
is a very real thing.

892
00:47:58,084 --> 00:47:58,484
People really

893
00:47:59,364 --> 00:48:01,224
like coming up with, uh,
very beautiful things.

894
00:48:01,264 --> 00:48:05,044
And it's probably from gardening that,
like, you know, farming

895
00:48:05,104 --> 00:48:07,644
happened in the first place. There
was slash and burn agriculture.

896
00:48:07,684 --> 00:48:09,044
Agriculture, if you want to call it that.

897
00:48:09,064 --> 00:48:12,714
I mean, people are very careful to, like,
not exhaust resources where they were.

898
00:48:12,744 --> 00:48:16,204
That seems a very self-conscious thing,
but humans aren't even like,

899
00:48:16,304 --> 00:48:19,204
um,
we just get together in big groups and,

900
00:48:19,284 --> 00:48:22,524
Even, even to animals,
we're not like that.

901
00:48:22,564 --> 00:48:25,964
We exterminate, like, other humans, um,
you know, genocidally

902
00:48:26,704 --> 00:48:28,874
these days and for the past, like,
2,000 years.

903
00:48:28,884 --> 00:48:32,714
And that probably has something to do with
the nation state because it's

904
00:48:32,764 --> 00:48:35,984
only nation state that can perform, like,
arbitrary violence.

905
00:48:36,064 --> 00:48:38,534
Uh, you know, if, if I kill you
and your... If I kill you, it's fine,

906
00:48:38,584 --> 00:48:42,164
I kill your family, it's like, oh,
I clearly had a point there because

907
00:48:42,204 --> 00:48:46,108
beyond any reasonable,
like-Your point about living like a king

908
00:48:46,148 --> 00:48:50,038
capitalism, yeah, I'm with you, but it's,
like, like, a

909
00:48:50,088 --> 00:48:52,888
king ... A king and a slave are very, are,
are very similar, right?

910
00:48:52,928 --> 00:48:56,888
In that a slave has duties
but no rights and a king has the rights

911
00:48:56,968 --> 00:49:00,318
duties. And, and so in fact, kings
and slaves is all really (16:35) very ...

912
00:49:00,348 --> 00:49:03,148
The king is always surrounded by slaves
because they really understand each other.

913
00:49:03,288 --> 00:49:05,638
Uh,
they really understand what it's like to

914
00:49:05,668 --> 00:49:09,118
Not enforced,
but like having basically no say in, like,

915
00:49:09,128 --> 00:49:11,998
you know,
the complete alienation of you from your

916
00:49:12,028 --> 00:49:14,938
And the king is always supposed to
tolerate that because, you know, he's a,

917
00:49:14,948 --> 00:49:18,278
he's a vast and powerful thing set at the
very top of society.

918
00:49:18,288 --> 00:49:20,977
And, you know, the slave is like, "Well,
I don't even have a family." Right?

919
00:49:21,088 --> 00:49:23,258
Like,
"I can't even make friends." Obviously

920
00:49:23,268 --> 00:49:24,628
like, "Oh, legally I can't have friends.

921
00:49:24,688 --> 00:49:28,548
Legally I'm not even a person." Um,
waged labor has a

922
00:49:28,588 --> 00:49:32,428
way of doing this, you know,
where it's like the guy bringing you your

923
00:49:32,528 --> 00:49:36,408
is not ... It's not that.
The guy who installed your, like,

924
00:49:36,468 --> 00:49:40,058
is not, like, a real person.
And the person who, like ...

925
00:49:40,058 --> 00:49:42,868
This is my point, that, like,
it just has a way of, like,

926
00:49:42,908 --> 00:49:46,728
from, like, the systems you-
you're actually supposed to occupy because

927
00:49:46,808 --> 00:49:49,008
are working for something bigger than
yourself.

928
00:49:49,068 --> 00:49:52,798
And historically speaking,
waged labor has actually been quite

929
00:49:53,048 --> 00:49:56,808
It has not been the default mode of labor
to usually care very much

930
00:49:56,868 --> 00:49:59,728
about what we work on
and why we work on it,

931
00:50:00,288 --> 00:50:03,828
Scientists really care about what they do
and, and social scientists too.

932
00:50:03,868 --> 00:50:06,048
I,
I mean I can agree with your point about

933
00:50:06,888 --> 00:50:09,238
social science, and the answer is because,
like, the physical sciences were taking

934
00:50:09,308 --> 00:50:12,748
off and people wanted to be like the
Newton of, like, the social sciences where

935
00:50:12,758 --> 00:50:15,688
it's like we run an experiment
and we see like how people work.

936
00:50:15,788 --> 00:50:17,328
Um, we get something cool out of it.

937
00:50:17,428 --> 00:50:21,248
Uh, you know, the two big fathers of, uh,
sociology, uh,

938
00:50:21,288 --> 00:50:24,888
Durkheim and Marx, um, you know,
were also basically just like

939
00:50:24,948 --> 00:50:26,808
saying, "Look, this
is the system we're in.

940
00:50:26,828 --> 00:50:30,128
This, this, this, this, this
is exactly what's happening." We're hoping

941
00:50:30,148 --> 00:50:33,328
complete description of the system
something will change the way a Newton as

942
00:50:33,368 --> 00:50:36,268
descriptive scientist was able to create,
like, calculus and all this kind of,

943
00:50:36,288 --> 00:50:39,308
like, really fantastic stuff.
In a way like Pythagoras, for example,

944
00:50:39,328 --> 00:50:42,798
know, through geometry able to create,
like, a complete description of, like, uh,

945
00:50:42,808 --> 00:50:46,548
complicated human stuff. And these
are systems of imagining stuff, right?

946
00:50:46,568 --> 00:50:50,468
These systems sort of pointing out exactly
what's going on so that you can

947
00:50:50,488 --> 00:50:54,368
then move into something else. Um, this
is my secret point,

948
00:50:54,428 --> 00:50:58,188
in fact. (laughs) The, the,
these two things really point towards my

949
00:50:58,328 --> 00:51:02,008
of the biggest form of, like,
the biggest system of holding back

950
00:51:02,048 --> 00:51:05,748
often is obviously the mental one, right,
where you sort of

951
00:51:05,888 --> 00:51:09,168
stop yourself from imagining some things
and only imagine other things or filter

952
00:51:09,208 --> 00:51:12,708
out certain features because you're like,
"Those are bad." Uh, humans have a

953
00:51:12,728 --> 00:51:15,068
tendency to, like ... Yeah. Sorry.

954
00:51:15,168 --> 00:51:18,888
Uh, you got something? No. No?
It's just people don't (19:23) tendency to

955
00:51:18,908 --> 00:51:22,218
out certain ...
Humans have a tendency to filter out stuff

956
00:51:22,228 --> 00:51:24,488
of not think about it.
Us anarchists don't.

957
00:51:24,528 --> 00:51:27,428
(laughs) Us, I won't say us, but like,
you know, um, anarchist

958
00:51:27,548 --> 00:51:31,537
startups, these kinds of groups
that actually have to do stuff,

959
00:51:31,768 --> 00:51:35,358
closely at the difference between what
people say and what people actually do,

960
00:51:35,428 --> 00:51:37,438
so that you can, like, intervene in, like,
what they do.

961
00:51:37,448 --> 00:51:41,328
And they sort of try to create, like,
successful interventions.

962
00:51:41,428 --> 00:51:45,348
Um,
I would like to give the example of

963
00:51:45,368 --> 00:51:49,308
uh, you know, Orwellian, you know,
the worst.

964
00:51:49,388 --> 00:51:52,728
And it's written by someone ...
And people either talk about this

965
00:51:52,738 --> 00:51:56,548
completely.
Either people completely overlook this

966
00:51:56,608 --> 00:51:58,988
it's really only because of this." Uh,
but it was written by someone who was a

967
00:51:59,028 --> 00:52:00,848
propagandist for the British Raj.

968
00:52:00,908 --> 00:52:03,808
Like, he made his chops as well,
like a writ- a writer in Bengal.

969
00:52:03,828 --> 00:52:06,048
And he did quite a lot with the British
Raj.

970
00:52:06,108 --> 00:52:09,268
So this sort of right wing propaganda for
like Indian and British people, right?

971
00:52:09,908 --> 00:52:12,568
Then he sort of lived an extremely active
political life and basically came to the

972
00:52:12,588 --> 00:52:16,178
conclusion that like socialists and,
and capitalists are basically the same.

973
00:52:16,508 --> 00:52:18,088
Which is an insane thing to say, you know?

974
00:52:18,188 --> 00:52:21,128
Um,
from the biggest anarchist to the worst

975
00:52:21,488 --> 00:52:24,228
they're all basically just like coming up
with ways to like kill each other, right,

976
00:52:24,248 --> 00:52:28,108
and then- and not talk about it.
If you've read 1984, you know,

977
00:52:28,708 --> 00:52:32,648
Engsoc, you know, English socialism, uh,
it basically just says that like,

978
00:52:33,028 --> 00:52:36,918
you know,
in a society with this much level of like

979
00:52:37,028 --> 00:52:40,928
like really,
really shitty basic social control where

980
00:52:40,988 --> 00:52:43,418
always being watched and some machine
is always ...

981
00:52:43,428 --> 00:52:46,968
Some, some government official
is always understanding who you are.

982
00:52:47,008 --> 00:52:50,588
The truth is, like,
that turns people into the kind of people

983
00:52:50,628 --> 00:52:53,648
fundamentally distrust other people.
Right?

984
00:52:53,748 --> 00:52:57,488
Um, it's,
it's a very precise misunderstanding of

985
00:52:57,568 --> 00:53:01,128
anarchism and socialism
and all of these like vaguely humanist

986
00:53:01,227 --> 00:53:05,068
movements that are like, "Look,
machines would be good if they

987
00:53:05,208 --> 00:53:08,388
just like took away our work
and gave us more time for

988
00:53:08,448 --> 00:53:12,228
fun." But it seems as if they're just like

989
00:53:12,268 --> 00:53:15,928
taking up all of our time,
turning us into, like, more machine-like

990
00:53:16,028 --> 00:53:18,348
slaves. I mean,
this just seems to be happening.

991
00:53:18,408 --> 00:53:22,388
And there's no fun left. All the, the,
the context of fun now

992
00:53:22,428 --> 00:53:25,288
becomes like can you play football?

993
00:53:25,308 --> 00:53:28,868
Can you watch TV on the football as
opposed to like, you know,

994
00:53:28,928 --> 00:53:31,608
a game or something interesting to do with
your time or something that you want

995
00:53:31,668 --> 00:53:32,618
other people to do with their time.

996
00:53:32,648 --> 00:53:36,388
And it's like that has to be done so
that people can, like, have a lot of fun,

997
00:53:36,428 --> 00:53:39,348
that's like evil socialism, right?
(laughs) That's not even socialism.

998
00:53:39,488 --> 00:53:43,348
That's like the capitalist mode of
production that it's like, um, you

999
00:53:43,368 --> 00:53:46,388
know,
you have to be able to sort of record

1000
00:53:46,468 --> 00:53:50,458
big live audience see them
or like bet on them

1001
00:53:50,488 --> 00:53:53,538
know, profit-making,
surplus value generating activity.

1002
00:53:53,538 --> 00:53:55,608
You know, you can't just enjoy yourself.

1003
00:53:55,618 --> 00:53:58,788
And cultures that aren't

1004
00:53:59,248 --> 00:54:02,368
capitalist in this way tend to actually
just be sort of centered

1005
00:54:02,408 --> 00:54:06,068
around, um, enjoying themselves
and sustaining

1006
00:54:06,108 --> 00:54:09,928
themselves and self-consciously, right,
like live good, happy lives, you

1007
00:54:09,988 --> 00:54:13,018
know. You know, there
was a lot of philosophy anyway that's all

1008
00:54:13,068 --> 00:54:14,258
thing. And

1009
00:54:15,108 --> 00:54:18,608
dystopian fiction,
it creates this like very

1010
00:54:18,688 --> 00:54:22,448
real system of sort of holding back where
you're like future with

1011
00:54:22,468 --> 00:54:24,348
these people in charge would be bad.

1012
00:54:24,368 --> 00:54:27,208
You know, future with where everything
is governed socially.

1013
00:54:27,218 --> 00:54:30,688
So if, if, if, if people don't like you,
then you, then you'll be

1014
00:54:30,748 --> 00:54:33,358
ostracized and so you'll end up like not
liking people.

1015
00:54:33,468 --> 00:54:34,498
Uh, and, and that'll be the

1016
00:54:35,368 --> 00:54:39,088
political theme.
That's just not how like the real

1017
00:54:39,168 --> 00:54:42,168
world works.
That's not how interventions work.

1018
00:54:42,228 --> 00:54:45,388
I mean,
you live in all these systems where you're

1019
00:54:45,448 --> 00:54:49,072
and-It's machines
and machine learning that can, like,

1020
00:54:49,132 --> 00:54:51,852
optimize you for, like, saying that, "Hey,
you can have a little bit of freedom

1021
00:54:51,892 --> 00:54:55,122
there if you do that." I-
I hope I'm being coherent about this

1022
00:54:55,192 --> 00:54:58,872
I-
I feel like I get very vague (laughs) um,

1023
00:54:59,132 --> 00:54:59,932
basically there being

1024
00:55:00,732 --> 00:55:04,172
no possibility of imagining a future-
future better than ours,

1025
00:55:04,292 --> 00:55:08,032
um, at the moment. And I- I-
I would sort of lay the blame

1026
00:55:08,052 --> 00:55:11,872
solely on the capitalists, um, if,
you know, like, 50 years ago.

1027
00:55:11,882 --> 00:55:15,272
(laughs) Today, I- I'd lay
that blame on just, like,

1028
00:55:15,292 --> 00:55:19,262
kind of people who are like, "Um,
computers are the- are the future and- and

1029
00:55:19,272 --> 00:55:20,892
they're the best." Because

1030
00:55:21,732 --> 00:55:25,532
a fancy server rack does not make a,
an intelligent

1031
00:55:25,592 --> 00:55:28,532
society and being able to maintain
and continue one does not make an

1032
00:55:28,572 --> 00:55:32,412
society, and being able to dam a river
and provide electricity in houses does

1033
00:55:32,472 --> 00:55:35,752
not automatically make
that society better, right?

1034
00:55:35,852 --> 00:55:39,092
What you need is, like,
actually competent interventions.

1035
00:55:39,101 --> 00:55:43,032
"Hey, can we get, like,
this set of medicines, you know,

1036
00:55:43,052 --> 00:55:46,852
medicines to these people so they can
live, like, somewhat long lives?" Um,

1037
00:55:47,472 --> 00:55:51,162
there's at least broadly where the state
is supposed to provide healthcare, uh,

1038
00:55:51,251 --> 00:55:55,232
protection. And in the guise of that,
the rest of

1039
00:55:55,272 --> 00:55:59,082
the package is weird.
The rest of the package is like, like

1040
00:55:59,112 --> 00:56:02,042
those are the three things humans really
care about, you know.

1041
00:56:02,092 --> 00:56:04,962
Like,
humans care about educating their children

1042
00:56:05,032 --> 00:56:08,792
Humans care about, you know,
taking care of each other's health and

1043
00:56:09,532 --> 00:56:12,392
humans really care about protecting other
humans, I think.

1044
00:56:12,472 --> 00:56:14,992
These are the three places that
when you'll notice that, like, you know,

1045
00:56:15,012 --> 00:56:18,332
these machine learning people are, like,
really trying to, like, uh, say, "Let-

1046
00:56:18,352 --> 00:56:21,532
let's optimize this.
Let's really optimize these three things."

1047
00:56:21,752 --> 00:56:25,352
three things we'll be able to optimize
perfectly." Uh, education, you know,

1048
00:56:25,992 --> 00:56:27,732
will basically get rid of teachers.

1049
00:56:27,772 --> 00:56:30,812
Biotech will basically start inventing all
the drugs (inaudible)

1050
00:56:30,992 --> 00:56:33,942
fantastic. And, like,

1051
00:56:33,972 --> 00:56:37,612
protection/employment, right,
where it's like, we'll perfectly allocate

1052
00:56:37,632 --> 00:56:40,312
everybody so that there's no crime,
you know,

1053
00:56:40,332 --> 00:56:43,232
to do. Um, you know,
if anybody steps out of line,

1054
00:56:43,292 --> 00:56:47,052
shock them or, like,
joke them off later (laughs) as the way.

1055
00:56:47,172 --> 00:56:51,072
Um, yeah, so I think
that sort of being the future that

1056
00:56:51,132 --> 00:56:52,792
these, like, uncaring

1057
00:56:53,852 --> 00:56:55,972
information-type people

1058
00:56:57,092 --> 00:57:00,492
can only think of. Because this
is what information science reduces you

1059
00:57:00,512 --> 00:57:04,172
to. Systems engineering
and this kind of stuff actually takes into

1060
00:57:04,182 --> 00:57:08,102
account, like, you know,
what people want to be and where-

1061
00:57:08,172 --> 00:57:11,222
find and what they see maybe as some
greater value.

1062
00:57:11,272 --> 00:57:14,992
It's inherently non-capitalist because it
sees humans and human

1063
00:57:15,072 --> 00:57:18,992
flourishing and animal flourishing
and other beings flourishing and,

1064
00:57:19,032 --> 00:57:22,332
being able to self-consciously take
decisions about yourself, especially

1065
00:57:22,372 --> 00:57:26,322
realize that, like, holy shit, like,
this whole damn thing is

1066
00:57:26,352 --> 00:57:29,552
rotten. And those in- those decisions
are basically impossible under

1067
00:57:30,132 --> 00:57:34,092
representative democratic systems where,
like, aristocrats and heroes, um, will

1068
00:57:34,132 --> 00:57:37,702
tell you that, like, "Look,
this makes money," or, "Look,

1069
00:57:37,832 --> 00:57:39,832
Plebiscite systems
are actually really undemocratic.

1070
00:57:39,852 --> 00:57:41,162
We've known this since the time of
Thucydides.

1071
00:57:41,172 --> 00:57:44,892
The Peloponnesian War basically ended up
as a completely democratic conflict.

1072
00:57:44,912 --> 00:57:48,132
And it was pretty obvious that, like,
nobody actually wanted it to happen

1073
00:57:48,172 --> 00:57:50,552
all these terrible things kept happening,
you know.

1074
00:57:50,572 --> 00:57:53,972
Anybody seriously, like, who was like,
"Okay, well, let's introduce these five,

1075
00:57:54,032 --> 00:57:56,912
interventions. We'll-
we'll do great." Great.

1076
00:57:57,012 --> 00:58:00,222
Um, that's not my point. The-
the biggest one

1077
00:58:00,312 --> 00:58:03,872
is mentally holding back and machine

1078
00:58:03,912 --> 00:58:07,182
learning, polling, you know, um,

1079
00:58:07,212 --> 00:58:09,992
capitalism, sure. I'm not (inaudible) .

1080
00:58:10,012 --> 00:58:12,412
These are the kind of things
that sort of primarily try to hold you

1081
00:58:12,492 --> 00:58:15,952
language,
aren't simulating what other people want

1082
00:58:16,072 --> 00:58:20,002
This expression of, like,
what you actually want is,

1083
00:58:20,012 --> 00:58:22,582
to actually getting it, you know.
Is wanting stuff...

1084
00:58:22,612 --> 00:58:26,212
isn't wanting to be desirable, if-
if you get my point.

1085
00:58:26,232 --> 00:58:29,642
What you want is the actual stuff you want
and

1086
00:58:30,112 --> 00:58:33,892
meaning is important.
Being able to ascribe your own meaning to

1087
00:58:33,932 --> 00:58:37,252
opposed to being, like,
this man-in-box with engine, man-in-box

1088
00:58:37,952 --> 00:58:41,912
shared by other people is...
seems like a pretty important

1089
00:58:41,952 --> 00:58:43,952
you know. Not- not not getting to that.

1090
00:58:44,092 --> 00:58:47,552
So, um, I think you broadly made two major

1091
00:58:47,632 --> 00:58:51,552
points, maybe three. Uh,
so I feel like the first major point

1092
00:58:51,612 --> 00:58:54,112
made, uh, was, yeah, around

1093
00:58:54,912 --> 00:58:57,732
anarchism, uh, according to you. You...

1094
00:58:57,792 --> 00:59:01,012
if you have, like, a huge number of,
you know, people doing whatever they want,

1095
00:59:01,052 --> 00:59:04,262
like, by... for you, it
is not the default that, oh, like,

1096
00:59:04,312 --> 00:59:06,981
bright idea of, "Oh,
let's just form a group

1097
00:59:06,992 --> 00:59:09,942
Like, you s- you are saying, like,
that does not always happen by default.

1098
00:59:10,012 --> 00:59:13,272
I'm saying that does always happen by
default and you gave some reasons for

1099
00:59:13,312 --> 00:59:15,182
I think that was your first major point.

1100
00:59:15,292 --> 00:59:18,892
Uh, I think your second major point was

1101
00:59:18,992 --> 00:59:22,592
around, uh, capitalism
and optimization and then you also

1102
00:59:22,632 --> 00:59:26,452
connected to that how ML enables more
efficient optimization, uh, which

1103
00:59:26,532 --> 00:59:26,892
is

1104
00:59:27,712 --> 00:59:31,252
essentially in a capitalist society,
you are forced to

1105
00:59:31,332 --> 00:59:34,682
optimize for certain things,
then you become an optimizer. It's...

1106
00:59:34,692 --> 00:59:37,582
then it no longer just becomes, like, oh,
at my...

1107
00:59:37,592 --> 00:59:40,912
like, at least people who are, like,
pro-capitalism would say, you know, like,

1108
00:59:40,952 --> 00:59:44,652
your day job, you know,
you have to optimize for XYZ things

1109
00:59:44,692 --> 00:59:48,592
the work, uh,
you may be alienated from it,

1110
00:59:48,632 --> 00:59:52,132
free time and free resources
which you're free to do whatever.

1111
00:59:52,152 --> 00:59:55,522
But I think that would be the optimistic
way of, you know, defending capitalism and

1112
00:59:55,712 --> 00:59:58,792
I'm sympathetic to that.
But I think the point you are making,

1113
00:59:59,352 --> 01:00:03,272
okay, even if you do got- you-
you do get a bunch of, you know,

1114
01:00:03,292 --> 01:00:06,392
free resources at the end of your day job
because, you know, your mind has been

1115
01:00:06,432 --> 01:00:09,352
trained to only optimize for those things,
you know, you don't really

1116
01:00:10,132 --> 01:00:13,312
have the ability to do fun things,
to build

1117
01:00:13,392 --> 01:00:17,232
relationships,
to build maybe communities with hobby

1118
01:00:17,312 --> 01:00:19,932
know, other sorts of things.
I think that's-

1119
01:00:20,032 --> 01:00:20,872
Yeah, well-

1120
01:00:21,072 --> 01:00:21,102
... how I-

1121
01:00:21,102 --> 01:00:24,642
... not that... not that simple. Not
that simple because, like, you know,

1122
01:00:24,672 --> 01:00:27,212
to spend a lot of time with your
communities in order to build them.

1123
01:00:27,252 --> 01:00:30,072
You have to do it very self-consciously
and if, like, eight hours a day of your

1124
01:00:30,112 --> 01:00:32,652
consciousness is that,
then you won't be able to spend

1125
01:00:32,732 --> 01:00:35,092
even... you know, eight hours a day,
you could be doing something you don't

1126
01:00:35,152 --> 01:00:38,212
with and then have to, like, go in and be,
like, "Actually, guys, you know,

1127
01:00:38,272 --> 01:00:42,192
Buddhists say they all renounce all
worldly work," and then back to

1128
01:00:42,232 --> 01:00:43,962
worldly work in the (laughs) in the
morning, so...

1129
01:00:44,032 --> 01:00:47,872
Uh, so I am actually sympathetic to
that point, which is that, okay,

1130
01:00:47,892 --> 01:00:51,612
eight hours of your day at a job you don't
really have your heart in, that

1131
01:00:51,692 --> 01:00:54,852
is going to affect even the remaining time
you have free, the remaining resources.

1132
01:00:54,892 --> 01:00:58,752
Even if you have a bun- you did your job,
you got a bunch of money, you have a

1133
01:00:58,792 --> 01:01:01,852
bunch of free time,
you still may not be able to use them in

1134
01:01:01,872 --> 01:01:03,002
Like,
I actually agree with you on this point-

1135
01:01:03,002 --> 01:01:05,910
And that most people
are working jobs they don't want....

1136
01:01:05,910 --> 01:01:07,359
most people who work jobs they don't want-

1137
01:01:07,370 --> 01:01:07,370
Yeah.

1138
01:01:07,370 --> 01:01:09,680
... like, more than the people who aren't.

1139
01:01:09,700 --> 01:01:11,830
Yeah. I also agree with you on
that (laughs) . Yeah.

1140
01:01:11,919 --> 01:01:14,850
I think I agree with you on that,
so I think that's a second point you made.

1141
01:01:14,959 --> 01:01:18,700
And I think your third point, no,
and this thing you also connected to,

1142
01:01:18,740 --> 01:01:22,680
okay,
because this level of optimizing every

1143
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:26,319
bad, and because, you know,
machine learning is being used for

1144
01:01:26,379 --> 01:01:29,669
aspect of your life,
including relationships,

1145
01:01:29,669 --> 01:01:33,390
healthcare. Like,
because you see these things as some way

1146
01:01:33,399 --> 01:01:36,779
to be optimized, like opti- ...
And therefore you say, "Yeah,

1147
01:01:36,839 --> 01:01:40,060
learning is bad." I think this
was broadly still in your second point.

1148
01:01:40,080 --> 01:01:41,279
I think your third point was

1149
01:01:42,120 --> 01:01:45,919
around, uh, imagination for the future,
and how, like, people who

1150
01:01:45,939 --> 01:01:49,759
write dystopian fiction
are limiting our imagination for

1151
01:01:49,799 --> 01:01:52,180
actually what is even possible in the
future.

1152
01:01:52,240 --> 01:01:52,580
I think that-

1153
01:01:52,620 --> 01:01:55,740
Not on purpose. Again,
I don't wanna prescribe an intentionality.

1154
01:01:55,808 --> 01:01:58,740
A lot of them do, like, "Oh,
hope in the time of, like,

1155
01:01:58,759 --> 01:02:01,220
know, we live in a ... Some,
some people feel like we live in a

1156
01:02:01,259 --> 01:02:03,540
That's fine to, like, imagine hope,
but that's very good.

1157
01:02:03,580 --> 01:02:06,750
But, like, you know, it's writing,
you know, the ... Some- ...

1158
01:02:06,879 --> 01:02:10,859
I find myself wanting to, like,
give literary ideas (laughs) instead of,

1159
01:02:10,899 --> 01:02:14,350
historical, anthropological or social or,
like, technical ones, you know.

1160
01:02:14,350 --> 01:02:15,799
'Cause they're very poetic.

1161
01:02:15,839 --> 01:02:19,520
Got it. Okay, fine. So I ...
Neither of us is specifically blaming the

1162
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:23,060
dystopian fiction writers for doing this,
but the result is,

1163
01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,299
uh, society as a whole,
when they read dystopian fiction,

1164
01:02:26,379 --> 01:02:30,319
they are programmed to accept, okay, like,
you know, life sucks

1165
01:02:30,379 --> 01:02:33,580
right now in certain ways and it
is going to continue to suffer,

1166
01:02:33,640 --> 01:02:35,470
because, you know, this
is what all these people are forecasting.

1167
01:02:35,480 --> 01:02:38,339
We are not able to imagine better.
So I think that was your third point.

1168
01:02:38,439 --> 01:02:42,209
Uh, okay, so I think I,
at least at a high level,

1169
01:02:42,359 --> 01:02:43,700
points. Maybe there were a lot of details-

1170
01:02:43,720 --> 01:02:43,910
(laughs)

1171
01:02:43,910 --> 01:02:46,220
... maybe I may not have gotten (laughs) ,
but I think at a high level, I think

1172
01:02:46,259 --> 01:02:48,319
this is what I understood from your
points.

1173
01:02:48,379 --> 01:02:51,620
Now, I mean,
my counterpoints to these things

1174
01:02:51,680 --> 01:02:55,350
regarding, you know, like anarchism and,
you know, big groups and

1175
01:02:55,399 --> 01:02:59,259
violence. Uh, yeah,
I think I would want to know, like,

1176
01:02:59,399 --> 01:03:00,779
kind of data point ... I don't know.

1177
01:03:00,799 --> 01:03:03,549
I think now this discussion
is shifting (laughs) more into a debate,

1178
01:03:03,620 --> 01:03:06,379
of all.
I think a thing that's actually happening.

1179
01:03:06,459 --> 01:03:08,899
Uh, is there any data point
that would actually change your mind?

1180
01:03:08,939 --> 01:03:12,899
I think you seem to have a view of history
which is like, you know, one support it,

1181
01:03:12,919 --> 01:03:16,580
like, individuals by default were free,
at least when homo

1182
01:03:16,660 --> 01:03:20,379
sapiens started off. And eventually,
some people had these ideas of forming

1183
01:03:20,399 --> 01:03:22,660
and nation states, et cetera, and this
was bad.

1184
01:03:22,700 --> 01:03:22,939
And

1185
01:03:24,140 --> 01:03:24,810
I am saying-

1186
01:03:24,810 --> 01:03:24,810
I am-

1187
01:03:24,810 --> 01:03:27,339
... no, for ... Okay, okay,
you disagree with that.

1188
01:03:27,359 --> 01:03:29,160
But I, I think my view is, like-

1189
01:03:29,169 --> 01:03:29,169
Okay.

1190
01:03:29,169 --> 01:03:32,419
...
as long as homo sapiens has walked this

1191
01:03:32,460 --> 01:03:34,600
groups using violence to take away other
groups' stuff.

1192
01:03:34,620 --> 01:03:38,399
Like, this has always been true.
And I'm like, if I show you, you know,

1193
01:03:38,460 --> 01:03:39,720
points, so that would
that change your mind?

1194
01:03:39,740 --> 01:03:43,479
Like, if I show you, in 8000 BC,
these were the empires and emperors,

1195
01:03:43,660 --> 01:03:47,540
6000 BC these were the empires,
in 4000 BC these were the empires,

1196
01:03:47,600 --> 01:03:50,680
these were the empires. Like,
if I show you all that concrete data,

1197
01:03:50,700 --> 01:03:51,879
something that would change your mind?

1198
01:03:51,899 --> 01:03:53,549
Like, because, I mean,
this has moved into a debate-

1199
01:03:53,549 --> 01:03:54,310
It, it b-

1200
01:03:54,310 --> 01:03:57,439
... and now I do want to figure out, okay,
if this is a debate now, you know,

1201
01:03:57,460 --> 01:03:59,600
what's the crux? You know,
what data would actually change-

1202
01:03:59,620 --> 01:04:01,600
But I think we can, I think with that,
I think we can stop there.

1203
01:04:01,620 --> 01:04:03,009
May-
maybe we can have this discussion next

1204
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,020
We are, in fact,
very interested in doing this.

1205
01:04:05,100 --> 01:04:05,479
Uh-

1206
01:04:05,540 --> 01:04:05,790
Oh, yeah.

1207
01:04:05,790 --> 01:04:05,979
... do-

1208
01:04:06,020 --> 01:04:06,299
Yes, I-

1209
01:04:06,339 --> 01:04:10,319
Human groups necessarily 10 forwards,
like, outward scaling, this

1210
01:04:10,339 --> 01:04:11,819
thing. And, and I don't think that's true.

1211
01:04:11,839 --> 01:04:11,850
Yeah.

1212
01:04:11,850 --> 01:04:13,279
I think human groups-

1213
01:04:13,319 --> 01:04:13,479
Okay.

1214
01:04:13,520 --> 01:04:13,799
We can be-

1215
01:04:13,839 --> 01:04:14,919
So this was, I think, my first point.

1216
01:04:14,939 --> 01:04:18,509
So if, if I provided you data like this,
would that actually change your mind is

1217
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:21,140
the question? Because if you say yes,
then I will actually sit

1218
01:04:21,149 --> 01:04:22,399
and we have to do a bunch of research.

1219
01:04:22,410 --> 01:04:22,410
(laughs)

1220
01:04:22,419 --> 01:04:22,488
But

1221
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:25,600
yeah, so that's, like,
point number one regard-

1222
01:04:25,620 --> 01:04:28,899
I have a lot of counterpoint.
I have a lot of counter data points

1223
01:04:28,919 --> 01:04:31,799
like, why that is so ...
I'd be happy to have it, but I just think-

1224
01:04:31,819 --> 01:04:35,759
Yeah, yeah.
Then your point number two on capitalism

1225
01:04:35,819 --> 01:04:38,290
us to become optimizers and even up- ...
se- ...

1226
01:04:38,299 --> 01:04:41,600
to the point where we optimize lots of
aspects of our life that maybe are better

1227
01:04:41,620 --> 01:04:45,269
left not optimized. Uh, okay,
you seem to (laughs)

1228
01:04:45,279 --> 01:04:46,479
disagree with that framing.

1229
01:04:46,488 --> 01:04:47,950
'Cause I'm not arguing for, like, opt- ...

1230
01:04:47,979 --> 01:04:50,759
like, not optimizing certain stuff.

1231
01:04:50,819 --> 01:04:54,339
I'm just saying that, like,
it's not actually getting optimized.

1232
01:04:54,359 --> 01:04:57,640
Like it, it ... You know,
we're not actually optimizing for stuff we

1233
01:04:57,720 --> 01:04:58,930
optimize for, right? Like-

1234
01:04:59,000 --> 01:05:00,600
Oh, we are optimizing for the wrong thing.

1235
01:05:00,700 --> 01:05:03,759
I'm, like,
really obviously optimizing for the wrong

1236
01:05:03,779 --> 01:05:05,259
Like, nobody wants to

1237
01:05:06,660 --> 01:05:08,600
... not even, like, do certain jobs.

1238
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,120
Nobody wants certain things to be real.

1239
01:05:12,180 --> 01:05:15,328
You know what I ... Like,
that's what I'm trying to say,

1240
01:05:15,379 --> 01:05:18,180
And yet, those things
are becoming realer and realer every day.

1241
01:05:18,220 --> 01:05:20,589
Case in point,
super intelligent machines

1242
01:05:20,640 --> 01:05:24,609
I mean, those are only profitable if,
like, you know,

1243
01:05:24,660 --> 01:05:28,359
you're some, like, millionaire, like, uh,
with, with, like, with like some big

1244
01:05:28,379 --> 01:05:30,609
house. Uh, not just millionaires, right?
If you ...

1245
01:05:30,640 --> 01:05:33,460
if you're the kind of person who comes
home after work into, like, your apartment

1246
01:05:33,500 --> 01:05:36,680
and someone ...
some guy on the internet is selling you,

1247
01:05:36,720 --> 01:05:40,580
like, you know,
you'll have a intelligent thing in your

1248
01:05:40,600 --> 01:05:42,370
the lights off when you feel like it,"
and it's ...

1249
01:05:42,370 --> 01:05:44,919
You'll be like, "How much
are you gonna charge me for it, you know?

1250
01:05:44,939 --> 01:05:48,740
Because, like, you know,
I can just turn it off myself."

1251
01:05:48,819 --> 01:05:50,609
made a lot of decisions in that process,
right?

1252
01:05:50,839 --> 01:05:52,189
You, you already agree to live in a house.

1253
01:05:52,220 --> 01:05:56,029
You've already agreed to, like, you know,
have, like, smart lights controlled by

1254
01:05:56,080 --> 01:05:59,960
certain systems.
And you've already made a lot of decisions

1255
01:05:59,979 --> 01:06:03,720
not have otherwise
if you had the free choice of,

1256
01:06:03,759 --> 01:06:07,500
cabin in the woods
and only talk to my friends," or,

1257
01:06:07,520 --> 01:06:10,220
with, like,
no internet connection at all and,

1258
01:06:10,240 --> 01:06:13,680
certain things," and, you know.
That's kind of my point, that, like,

1259
01:06:13,799 --> 01:06:17,600
f- ... free structures
are very different from, like,

1260
01:06:17,680 --> 01:06:21,310
free labor. I don't want people, like,
working for me. I'm happy to, like ...

1261
01:06:21,419 --> 01:06:24,939
like, reciprocal labor and, you know,
hustle with people and,

1262
01:06:24,979 --> 01:06:28,640
I think a lot of people are. And
if there was some, like,

1263
01:06:28,660 --> 01:06:32,379
felt like everybody, elders
and youngers were,

1264
01:06:32,399 --> 01:06:36,120
But currently, you know,
it's very easy to, like,

1265
01:06:36,200 --> 01:06:39,600
like, the individualized, atomized person.

1266
01:06:39,640 --> 01:06:41,890
It's very difficult to do
that for a family, right?

1267
01:06:41,890 --> 01:06:44,960
It's basically impossible because, like,
a dad doesn't want, like, his kid watching

1268
01:06:44,979 --> 01:06:47,810
pornography all day,
but the kid wants to optimize for watching

1269
01:06:47,879 --> 01:06:51,259
video games all day.
And the dad wants to optimize for

1270
01:06:51,299 --> 01:06:54,819
the mom is ... might be like, "Actually,
I want my kid to be, like, a, a free

1271
01:06:54,859 --> 01:06:57,939
thinker." And then, you know,
what should the machine do?

1272
01:06:57,979 --> 01:07:01,819
Obviously not. Decisions humans make.
These are important decisions humans make.

1273
01:07:01,839 --> 01:07:03,330
You know? It's, it's, it's really

1274
01:07:04,160 --> 01:07:07,020
... Just,
just involving machine learning in

1275
01:07:07,279 --> 01:07:10,520
sense of, like, where the future is going,
some imagined, like, good stuff.

1276
01:07:10,540 --> 01:07:14,228
And-... the suburban lifestyle where,
like, people, like, go to, and

1277
01:07:14,328 --> 01:07:16,648
like, you know, box from box to box.

1278
01:07:16,688 --> 01:07:19,748
It's just,
it's not going to be useful for

1279
01:07:19,788 --> 01:07:21,528
more real agency or power in that, right?

1280
01:07:22,428 --> 01:07:25,368
That's what I mean when I say
that capitalism forces us to optimize for

1281
01:07:25,408 --> 01:07:29,308
don't want to optimize for. Not that,
like, you know, you

1282
01:07:29,328 --> 01:07:31,558
shouldn't buy, like, cosmetics because,
like, that makes...

1283
01:07:31,568 --> 01:07:35,328
You know,
because you're beautiful as you are.

1284
01:07:35,348 --> 01:07:37,348
My point is the first one, not the latter.

1285
01:07:37,388 --> 01:07:40,828
Yeah, uh, yeah,
I think I've still not understood this

1286
01:07:40,868 --> 01:07:43,728
I think you've given a bunch of concrete
examples, and, like, examples are useful,

1287
01:07:43,748 --> 01:07:47,428
but I tend to be, like, here are my,
you know, crisp elegant world models

1288
01:07:47,448 --> 01:07:50,548
of explain everything. And, like,
from your examples, I'm not able to, like,

1289
01:07:50,568 --> 01:07:52,868
into my framework of how I view reality.

1290
01:07:52,908 --> 01:07:55,508
Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just because,
like, one is, like, uh, uh, a more

1291
01:07:55,548 --> 01:07:59,328
complicated understanding example,
and the other is, like, this is

1292
01:07:59,408 --> 01:08:01,628
usually what people mean,
and I don't mean that.

1293
01:08:01,668 --> 01:08:02,357
Okay, yeah, I think that, yeah,
so there's-

1294
01:08:02,357 --> 01:08:03,878
Like, I don't mean
that we're optimizing for stuff...

1295
01:08:03,908 --> 01:08:07,388
Again, uh,
this might again literally be another

1296
01:08:07,428 --> 01:08:10,998
but I think it's possible some alternate
society you're imagining, like, the...

1297
01:08:11,048 --> 01:08:12,708
I literally don't have that in my head.

1298
01:08:12,728 --> 01:08:14,808
Like,
I literally have no idea what you're

1299
01:08:14,828 --> 01:08:16,006
(laughs) That's even possible.

1300
01:08:16,028 --> 01:08:16,886
(laughs)

1301
01:08:16,948 --> 01:08:18,808
But, uh, that's fine because, I mean,

1302
01:08:19,728 --> 01:08:22,828
my general answer to a lot of these types
of questions

1303
01:08:23,188 --> 01:08:26,548
is, yeah, like, or like, you know, why
is social media

1304
01:08:26,587 --> 01:08:30,328
optimized to be so addictive?
I think your example about porn goes into

1305
01:08:30,368 --> 01:08:34,028
general, like,
that ties into a general point about,

1306
01:08:34,048 --> 01:08:37,707
an arms race where, you know,
every person is, like,

1307
01:08:37,808 --> 01:08:41,587
Uh,
your point about education also comes

1308
01:08:41,598 --> 01:08:45,587
Yeah, like, unless, like,
maybe parents decide, "Oh, you

1309
01:08:45,728 --> 01:08:48,707
know,
we want to put our kid in this specific

1310
01:08:48,747 --> 01:08:52,247
like, by default, it
is a competitive thing of,

1311
01:08:52,288 --> 01:08:55,548
okay, if we put our kid in this school,
you know, therefore he'll have a good job,

1312
01:08:55,568 --> 01:08:57,528
he'll make more money.
That becomes an arms race.

1313
01:08:57,548 --> 01:09:01,388
By default, a nation state decides,
you know,

1314
01:09:01,428 --> 01:09:05,238
decide, you know,
if we put XYZ things in our education

1315
01:09:05,268 --> 01:09:08,608
have citizens who are, you know,
obedient to us and make money for us, and

1316
01:09:09,188 --> 01:09:12,468
not... And, like,
that's the really priority,

1317
01:09:12,508 --> 01:09:16,448
optimized from that thing. And we are,
I think you and I are in agreement

1318
01:09:16,508 --> 01:09:20,428
that, you know,
a lot of these systems optimize for narrow

1319
01:09:20,448 --> 01:09:22,157
you know,
full set of what humans care about.

1320
01:09:22,167 --> 01:09:24,707
You know,
other things humans care about get left on

1321
01:09:24,747 --> 01:09:28,667
We are in agreement on this. Uh, like,
I agree with

1322
01:09:28,728 --> 01:09:32,688
you, there are a lot of, you know,
harms that come about as a

1323
01:09:32,728 --> 01:09:36,707
result of being in this sort of
capitalistic, arms race, competitive sort

1324
01:09:36,747 --> 01:09:39,398
of society. But yeah,
my answer to all of that is

1325
01:09:40,348 --> 01:09:44,108
nobody else has any alternative.
And again,

1326
01:09:44,148 --> 01:09:47,388
Maybe someone else has some alternative
that they're actually happy about.

1327
01:09:47,528 --> 01:09:50,688
We... There are a lot of alternatives.
You can just read history.

1328
01:09:50,728 --> 01:09:52,698
There's a lot of alternatives, people.

1329
01:09:52,948 --> 01:09:54,988
Yeah, yeah,
so I think my actual disagreement with

1330
01:09:55,008 --> 01:09:55,708
There are better alternatives out there,
it wasn't-

1331
01:09:55,828 --> 01:09:59,438
So I think my actual disagreement with you
here is not, like, you know, do these

1332
01:09:59,448 --> 01:10:01,178
downsides exist or not? How big are they?

1333
01:10:01,208 --> 01:10:03,428
Like, I actually agree there
are a lot of downsides that

1334
01:10:03,488 --> 01:10:06,928
I'm just like, the other defaults
are literally

1335
01:10:06,968 --> 01:10:10,268
dictatorships, there are fas-
fascist governments, they're totalitarian

1336
01:10:10,288 --> 01:10:14,228
governments. These
are the only alternate societies we have

1337
01:10:14,248 --> 01:10:18,008
envision. And I think, like, that
is where my actual disagreement with you

1338
01:10:18,048 --> 01:10:21,668
this kind of line of thinking is.
Regarding your third

1339
01:10:21,788 --> 01:10:25,518
point, uh,
on dystopian fiction restricting our

1340
01:10:25,568 --> 01:10:29,558
imagination for the future, I think,
I think I strongly agree-

1341
01:10:29,558 --> 01:10:32,648
agree with you on that. Like,
I think more people should be writing

1342
01:10:32,708 --> 01:10:36,408
science fiction,
a technologically advanced future that

1343
01:10:36,468 --> 01:10:39,088
and people are happy with. Like,
I think more people should be writing

1344
01:10:39,148 --> 01:10:42,468
And I think that's hard to write for a
bunch of such reasons.

1345
01:10:42,528 --> 01:10:45,478
I mean, one reason
is we literally don't...

1346
01:10:45,488 --> 01:10:46,798
Well, there are a few reasons that's hard.

1347
01:10:46,828 --> 01:10:50,628
So the first reason that's hard is if that

1348
01:10:50,968 --> 01:10:53,908
future you are writing about includes a
superintelligence.

1349
01:10:53,928 --> 01:10:57,728
So superintelligence by definition almost
can do things that you cannot imagine.

1350
01:10:57,788 --> 01:11:00,738
Not just it can do things you can't do,
it can do things that are beyond your

1351
01:11:00,788 --> 01:11:02,568
imagination, its imagination
is beyond yours.

1352
01:11:02,608 --> 01:11:05,718
So from that point on, I mean, what's
that guy's name? Uh, um...

1353
01:11:05,728 --> 01:11:06,317
No, um, he's-

1354
01:11:06,348 --> 01:11:07,948
I'll just finish
that in like five minutes.

1355
01:11:07,988 --> 01:11:08,168
Yeah.

1356
01:11:08,178 --> 01:11:11,968
Yeah, uh, I think Ray Kurzweil
and somebody else, like they said,

1357
01:11:12,028 --> 01:11:15,688
singularity is by de-
by definition almost like from there

1358
01:11:15,708 --> 01:11:18,498
onwards you cannot predict the future
because, you know, you're...

1359
01:11:18,508 --> 01:11:21,128
Like, if you could predict the future,
you'd be that intelligent yourself.

1360
01:11:21,168 --> 01:11:24,868
That type of thinking.
So I think that's the first reason writing

1361
01:11:24,928 --> 01:11:28,828
science fiction is hard.
The second reason writing science,

1362
01:11:28,847 --> 01:11:32,287
science fiction is hard because, I mean,
a lot of science fiction writers do

1363
01:11:32,808 --> 01:11:36,608
end up realizing that, you know,
our current social systems, you

1364
01:11:36,668 --> 01:11:40,148
know, like, our education system,
capitalism, democracy-

1365
01:11:40,348 --> 01:11:40,768
Yeah, yeah.

1366
01:11:40,778 --> 01:11:44,618
...
may actually survive in this extremely

1367
01:11:44,688 --> 01:11:48,648
they need to, like,
literally invent some new soc- social,

1368
01:11:48,668 --> 01:11:51,948
write that future. Uh, which is again,
like, a really hard thing to do.

1369
01:11:51,988 --> 01:11:53,568
Which they should do. I mean, which,
which, which-

1370
01:11:53,588 --> 01:11:53,898
Yeah, they-

1371
01:11:53,898 --> 01:11:54,218
... yeah, they should do.

1372
01:11:54,218 --> 01:11:56,938
They should do and I strongly recommend,
like, you know, if, you know, science

1373
01:11:56,968 --> 01:11:59,928
fiction writers have ideas on, you know,
what political systems should govern the

1374
01:11:59,968 --> 01:12:02,978
future, like, I strongly recommend
that they write about those things.

1375
01:12:03,048 --> 01:12:04,258
I think that's very important to do.

1376
01:12:04,328 --> 01:12:05,268
And I wish that people-

1377
01:12:05,288 --> 01:12:08,368
One example,
if I can just plug an example. Um,

1378
01:12:08,388 --> 01:12:11,488
Le Guin does this really well, um,
and she's an anarchist writer.

1379
01:12:11,548 --> 01:12:15,388
Anarchists that have to take this very
seriously because we often

1380
01:12:15,428 --> 01:12:18,838
proposing alternative versions of the
future enabled by technology

1381
01:12:18,868 --> 01:12:21,237
this kind of stuff
that we live in harmony with where...

1382
01:12:21,268 --> 01:12:24,878
Because that's, like, our political,
whole political idea, you know, like many

1383
01:12:24,968 --> 01:12:28,048
worlds under one. Um,
people like Ursula K.

1384
01:12:28,108 --> 01:12:31,968
Le Guin actually do this stuff where you
can dream amazing and complicated

1385
01:12:32,048 --> 01:12:33,408
worlds that take their technology-

1386
01:12:33,428 --> 01:12:33,458
Yeah, I have read some of her stuff. Yeah.

1387
01:12:33,458 --> 01:12:34,568
... and social systems, like, amazing.

1388
01:12:34,588 --> 01:12:38,468
Yeah, yeah,
I have read some of Ursula Le Guin's

1389
01:12:38,848 --> 01:12:41,968
a bunch of my disagreements with that are,
yeah, as you said, literally my

1390
01:12:42,008 --> 01:12:45,388
disagreements with anar- anarchism,
anarchy itself.

1391
01:12:45,428 --> 01:12:49,308
Like, uh, yeah, again,
it comes back to our point number one of

1392
01:12:49,348 --> 01:12:53,288
know,
do groups or do humans by default always

1393
01:12:53,308 --> 01:12:55,988
Like, I'm like, "Yes." You're like,
"No." I think that

1394
01:12:56,028 --> 01:12:59,778
which will come in even there. But yeah,
uh, so I, I think

1395
01:12:59,808 --> 01:13:02,178
that would be my reply to I think all your
three points.

1396
01:13:02,208 --> 01:13:05,608
So we can maybe now e-
either we can end the conversation or

1397
01:13:05,628 --> 01:13:07,508
you can give replies to this. Yeah.

1398
01:13:07,588 --> 01:13:10,058
No, I mean, I think my final opinions...

1399
01:13:10,088 --> 01:13:12,468
Thank you so much for summarizing so,
so many of my points.

1400
01:13:12,488 --> 01:13:15,148
I, I feel quite bad
that I'm not doing that for you.

1401
01:13:15,158 --> 01:13:18,947
(laughs) I feel as if I maybe...Um,
you would take no- more

1402
01:13:18,968 --> 01:13:20,456
space in the conversation than I should.

1403
01:13:21,748 --> 01:13:25,528
But you know, um, sorry. (crosstalk)

1404
01:13:25,548 --> 01:13:29,428
Yeah. Yeah. Um, but no offense, I mean,

1405
01:13:29,508 --> 01:13:32,668
uh, your points aren't very, uh,
inspiring, you know what I mean?

1406
01:13:32,688 --> 01:13:36,008
Like I... if it, if, if like, if like,
if like the alternative

1407
01:13:36,128 --> 01:13:39,237
to... i- if, like,
banning superintelligence is

1408
01:13:40,068 --> 01:13:44,028
so capitalism can continue
and people can continue to do like really

1409
01:13:44,088 --> 01:13:47,918
and that kind of stuff. I mean,
I think part of the appeal...

1410
01:13:47,947 --> 01:13:50,168
so part of the appeal of the
cryptocurrency as well, right?

1411
01:13:50,188 --> 01:13:53,987
Like people who were basically told,
you know, basically whatever you do will

1412
01:13:54,048 --> 01:13:56,928
matter because it'll be on chain
and it'll be the most important

1413
01:13:56,947 --> 01:13:58,968
thing and memes will be the future.

1414
01:13:59,008 --> 01:13:59,508
And

1415
01:14:00,327 --> 01:14:03,808
it's the same cell
that like artificial intelligence

1416
01:14:03,827 --> 01:14:07,388
It's like, oh well,
it'll do all the like boring jobs

1417
01:14:07,608 --> 01:14:11,277
and create like perfect supply chains
and this kind of stuff.

1418
01:14:11,288 --> 01:14:13,518
And then we'll just be able to feel,
to do the things we actually want to do,

1419
01:14:13,548 --> 01:14:16,487
you know, travel around
and build really complicated buildings

1420
01:14:16,528 --> 01:14:18,208
nice places and that kind of stuff.

1421
01:14:18,228 --> 01:14:22,197
Which isn't true,
that it's just not used for that. I mean,

1422
01:14:22,208 --> 01:14:24,548
there's just no correlation from X to Y.

1423
01:14:24,588 --> 01:14:28,568
There's not a clear path.
And it's because the, the,

1424
01:14:28,588 --> 01:14:30,487
this hits the outer layer of like

1425
01:14:31,288 --> 01:14:34,327
capitalist work, you know?
Basically here is

1426
01:14:34,407 --> 01:14:38,388
fuel, here is engine, here is output,
right?

1427
01:14:38,407 --> 01:14:42,128
And you can basically use the output to
like go get more

1428
01:14:42,208 --> 01:14:45,438
fuel and we can just do this forever.
Or at least not forever.

1429
01:14:45,468 --> 01:14:49,228
We'll use (2:00) in the,
the problems of history when like real

1430
01:14:49,367 --> 01:14:51,998
inventions are actually a lot more
complicated than that, right?

1431
01:14:52,028 --> 01:14:54,588
Like if you think about the microwave for
example.

1432
01:14:54,648 --> 01:14:57,447
Sure, it takes in electricity and,
and it spits out heat,

1433
01:14:57,508 --> 01:15:01,447
but it's very different from butane,
butane tanks,

1434
01:15:01,487 --> 01:15:04,428
right? Like the,
the technology of like pressurizing tanks

1435
01:15:05,148 --> 01:15:08,148
heat stuff in the future.
And it's even more different technology of

1436
01:15:08,228 --> 01:15:11,827
insulation which like keeps houses warm in
the future, which we figured out pretty

1437
01:15:11,848 --> 01:15:15,628
early on.
And that's even more different than like

1438
01:15:15,728 --> 01:15:19,008
stone refrigerators where people would
basically like kill animals and put their

1439
01:15:19,028 --> 01:15:22,048
meat in that stone
and then bury the stone because the stone

1440
01:15:22,068 --> 01:15:26,047
cold. Um, when people think technology,
they basically only think of

1441
01:15:26,088 --> 01:15:29,487
like, you know, server racks
and information

1442
01:15:29,548 --> 01:15:32,447
technology and cars because those
are the ones that like

1443
01:15:32,508 --> 01:15:36,128
economically have people doing really shit
boring

1444
01:15:36,208 --> 01:15:39,697
jobs. Um, people think that like, yeah,
technology

1445
01:15:40,088 --> 01:15:41,528
should be something we all work on, right?

1446
01:15:41,568 --> 01:15:44,028
It's,
it's good for us because it's economical.

1447
01:15:44,068 --> 01:15:46,777
And that's a very British minded way of
going about it.

1448
01:15:46,888 --> 01:15:48,867
When the British take out with the
Industrial Revolution,

1449
01:15:48,947 --> 01:15:52,188
like global custodians of it. You know,
technology is an invention that makes our

1450
01:15:52,327 --> 01:15:56,068
lives better. Uh,
it's specific interventions

1451
01:15:56,077 --> 01:15:57,657
And this is something that anarchists...

1452
01:15:57,708 --> 01:16:01,548
I think a lot of like people who actually
build startups want to like really

1453
01:16:01,788 --> 01:16:05,568
actually do, which
is just like stop people's times from

1454
01:16:05,608 --> 01:16:08,788
being wasted and make people live like
meaningful lives where like, you know,

1455
01:16:08,808 --> 01:16:10,996
self-consciously create where they...

1456
01:16:11,008 --> 01:16:14,288
where society becomes an act of mutual
creation and value

1457
01:16:15,008 --> 01:16:18,807
becomes the most self-conscious part
or most conscious part of that creation.