WEBVTT 00:00.080 --> 00:02.780 I think there's some chance the world might be ending soon. 00:02.820 --> 00:06.810 I think unless people protest against, you know, creation of 00:06.860 --> 00:10.340 superintelligence, like it will be hard to change this state 00:10.350 --> 00:13.540 If programmers are your heroes, then, you know, 00:13.640 --> 00:14.020 armies. 00:14.040 --> 00:17.470 also science, and like prediction, and control the systems including human 00:17.480 --> 00:20.280 And then you ask, okay, like if you have a social system, 00:20.340 --> 00:22.380 predict it? Why do you want to control it at all? 00:22.440 --> 00:26.200 And the basic answer to that, at least for me, is to 00:26.240 --> 00:30.040 like control mankind's incredible capacity for violence. 00:30.060 --> 00:32.308 This is the kind of system that a superintelligence... 00:32.360 --> 00:35.940 where a superintelligent system starts making sense because it's like, "What 00:35.960 --> 00:39.740 can give us our freedom back?" And like it can't. Obviously, it can't. 00:39.780 --> 00:43.360 It's, it's, it's the both uses of the system, not, 00:43.400 --> 00:47.160 This technology gives you excess resources, and excess resources 00:47.460 --> 00:49.850 do actually bring, you know, actual human happiness. 00:49.850 --> 00:53.650 It's a very precise misunderstanding of anarchism and 00:53.660 --> 00:57.480 socialism, and all of these like vaguely humanist 00:57.560 --> 01:01.080 like, "Look, machines would be good if they just like 01:01.740 --> 01:05.260 took away our work and gave us more time for fun." But it 01:05.360 --> 01:09.260 seems as if they're just like taking up all of our time, turning us 01:09.340 --> 01:11.800 into like more machine-like slaves. 01:12.420 --> 01:14.920 I am speaking to, uh, Samuel Shadrack. 01:15.020 --> 01:18.670 Uh, he's a friend of mine who I met, uh, a while back in, in, you know, when I was 01:18.700 --> 01:21.280 at college. Um, he's really smart. 01:21.300 --> 01:22.780 He's really, like ridiculously smart. 01:22.820 --> 01:26.020 He's written a lot of very interesting stuff about, uh, AI safety. 01:26.060 --> 01:29.880 He's had a really insane and weird life with a lot of twists 01:29.980 --> 01:30.640 And he's a very 01:31.520 --> 01:34.440 person who's I think is like really dedicated to like, uh, 01:34.460 --> 01:37.980 in. Um, I think, uh, if you see the rest of his channel, 01:38.000 --> 01:41.220 someone who's with a lot of integrity, with a lot of like, uh, 01:41.240 --> 01:44.620 he wants to say. Plus, you're on his channel, 01:44.640 --> 01:44.830 Oh, 01:45.640 --> 01:48.580 uh, everyone, my name is Samuel Shadrack. 01:48.600 --> 01:52.240 Uh, I have Aatish Sahay with me who I met in 01:52.300 --> 01:55.940 college. Yeah, we were both in college. He was a friend of a friend. 01:56.000 --> 01:59.700 We seem to have interest in at least some similar topics around, you 01:59.740 --> 02:03.560 know, philosophy, morality, et cetera. 02:03.640 --> 02:04.720 Also, I think, 02:05.660 --> 02:09.639 uh, yeah. So like my friend was actually very interested in 02:09.699 --> 02:12.820 AI forecasting, you know, if we are getting superintelligence and so on. 02:12.900 --> 02:15.680 And you know, Aatish is, you know, my friend's friend. 02:15.740 --> 02:19.620 So hopefully we'll figure out, you know, a shared topic of interest. 02:19.660 --> 02:23.640 Otherwise, professionally, yeah, I mean, I graduated from IT Delhi in 02:23.740 --> 02:27.700 2023. Uh, I have now transitioned to becoming an 02:27.800 --> 02:31.500 activist full-time. I think there's some chance the world 02:31.640 --> 02:35.480 soon. I think unless people protest against, you 02:35.500 --> 02:39.040 know, creation of superintelligence, like it'll be hard to change this state of 02:39.100 --> 02:42.180 affairs. I'm trying to raise awareness in some way 02:42.200 --> 02:44.420 Uh, that's basically what I'm doing right now. 02:44.440 --> 02:47.549 All right. Um, I'm just having a professional 02:47.620 --> 02:51.510 Um, so I, I'm, I'm an ex-journalist, that's just because I 02:51.540 --> 02:55.300 wrote stuff on the internet. Uh, I'm an ex, 02:55.540 --> 02:57.940 uh... I worked for a venture capital firm. 02:57.960 --> 03:01.880 Uh, so ex that as well. And I'm a game developer, uh, 03:01.900 --> 03:04.300 which, you know, not, not an ex on that yet. 03:04.310 --> 03:08.100 And currently, I, I, I've always sort of been an extremely 03:08.180 --> 03:10.460 uh, systems politically oriented thinker. 03:10.520 --> 03:13.350 And I think I'd like to, uh, you know, pursue that. 03:13.380 --> 03:17.160 I think professionally that's been my trajectory, 03:17.180 --> 03:20.860 in the world we're in. You know, my, my degree, uh, which I'm about to say 03:20.900 --> 03:23.040 is, is in computer science and social sciences. 03:23.100 --> 03:26.850 So not competition social sciences like hard, hard computer science and 03:26.920 --> 03:30.880 hard like social sciences. And, uh, you know, the twin only met in 03:30.920 --> 03:34.360 my own head. And I think I have some conclusions 03:34.380 --> 03:37.160 reached, but I also think I have a really fun way 03:37.200 --> 03:40.000 conclusions. So, that's my introduction. 03:40.060 --> 03:43.900 Uh, the topic today is, uh, systems of holding back. 03:43.960 --> 03:47.720 Now, uh, if you go to the Wikipedia page for 03:48.560 --> 03:52.300 you will... The most interesting of, of the sources is this book written by a 03:52.340 --> 03:55.060 Finnish person who basically came up with the idea of systems theory. 03:55.120 --> 03:59.040 And the third chapter of that is linked in, um, 03:59.420 --> 04:03.000 on Wikipedia. And it basically goes into these things 04:03.020 --> 04:05.560 can identify very easily if they start thinking about it. 04:05.620 --> 04:09.350 Uh, for example, right, um, the examples they give is managers 04:09.420 --> 04:13.000 would like to be more involved in and help their 0004 more, and 04:13.040 --> 04:16.660 employee- and employees would like if their managers 04:16.760 --> 04:20.610 Um, but that doesn't happen. Why? Um, and teachers would like to make sure all 04:20.640 --> 04:23.770 their kids get very good grades, and kids would broadly like to get good 04:23.780 --> 04:27.450 and that doesn't happen. Right? Um, and, you know, if, if you go around, you... 04:27.460 --> 04:29.480 I mean, like I said, people can very easily start identifying 04:29.520 --> 04:32.600 It's like, you know, I... people want like, you know, 04:32.610 --> 04:35.100 you know, people to be happy, and they don't want to see battles around, 04:35.300 --> 04:38.250 keeps happening. And so when I was doing... 04:38.540 --> 04:41.820 I actually do video games, and this, this, this, this mathematical concept of the 04:41.880 --> 04:45.540 isomorph or isomorphism came up, which is basically 04:46.440 --> 04:49.440 space between spaces, right? So it's very easy to identify. 04:49.460 --> 04:52.190 If you've ever seen, for example, the packing problem, uh, 04:52.200 --> 04:55.700 little shapes and like, you know, optimal way to pack X things, 04:55.740 --> 04:58.780 pack, uh, you know, one, two, three, four boxes. 04:58.800 --> 05:01.220 And some of them are like really weird and you wonder like, "Oh, why, why is that 05:01.280 --> 05:04.460 happening?" Sort of the little spaces in between them. 05:04.540 --> 05:07.570 That sort of got me thinking, uh, sort of been thinking about this for a 05:07.620 --> 05:11.330 time. Uh, but that's sort of got me very intimately 05:11.340 --> 05:15.240 society we're actually in, and why it feels like all of us just 05:15.300 --> 05:19.170 go from like, uh, box to box. You know, you go into a box at work, and then you 05:19.220 --> 05:22.840 get into a box to go home, and then when you're in, at home, you're in a box. 05:22.960 --> 05:26.820 And what's the, what, what, what engine attached to a box 05:27.000 --> 05:30.710 kind of system we're in? And, uh, it made me think a little bit 05:30.760 --> 05:34.660 more than about what the system is actually like holding back, right? 05:34.740 --> 05:38.330 Uh, and the answer is travel. A lot of anarchists, libertarians, 05:38.340 --> 05:42.040 everyone has been like, "A car is a very difficult thing to like manage." 05:42.080 --> 05:44.890 need to get all kinds of, uh, permits if you want to drive one. 05:44.920 --> 05:48.900 You can have insurance, visas. And broadly, right, if you want to 05:48.940 --> 05:51.390 go from like one room to the other, no one will stop you. 05:51.390 --> 05:54.630 But if you want to go from like one country to the other, 05:54.660 --> 05:58.270 red tape. And more than that, right, there's a lot of people... 05:58.280 --> 06:01.314 and I do think it's a very important point. 06:01.314 --> 06:02.664 uh, involved in that red tape, right? 06:02.674 --> 06:05.964 And there's a lot of, like, uh, people who work at airports, who work 06:06.084 --> 06:10.014 at, uh, immigration offices, who work at this stuff. 06:10.024 --> 06:12.664 I mean, they kinda have to feel like their job 06:12.764 --> 06:16.664 Um, you know, sort of you kind of justify your border 06:16.704 --> 06:20.124 by saying, "Look, we have all these people who 06:20.224 --> 06:23.404 and, um, it's very important that they, like, you know, get to 06:24.264 --> 06:25.914 ... It's all very important that they have their jobs. 06:25.924 --> 06:28.864 It's very important that people don't come in 06:28.884 --> 06:31.924 everybody knows that like, um, it's locals who commit most of the crimes. 06:32.144 --> 06:34.734 broadly speaking, because it's a really bad behavior. 06:34.744 --> 06:36.014 Like, I'm, I'm not trying to say that like ... 06:36.024 --> 06:38.304 No, I'm not trying to say that like, "Oh, because you don't commit any crimes." But 06:38.384 --> 06:42.374 the data is right there. Um, you know, this is sort of holding back, uh, 06:42.684 --> 06:45.254 the, the feeling of like, "Oh, well, I'm an outsider and, you know, 06:45.254 --> 06:49.204 them to get, like, get mad at me." Um, and this 06:49.264 --> 06:51.584 is something you do anyway when you start being watched, right? 06:51.604 --> 06:54.754 When, when, when you wanna go from one room to the 06:54.764 --> 06:57.624 something bad in that room." You, you're very careful 06:57.664 --> 07:01.604 that, that one to there. Um, you know, borders, maps, uh, these 07:01.624 --> 07:05.424 things really do make us feel as if we're, um, being held back, 07:05.504 --> 07:08.564 uh, from moving around. And, you know, people are like, "Well, you know, if, if I 07:08.624 --> 07:11.854 just travel all the w- all, all the way and then I'll travel around 07:11.884 --> 07:14.764 Everybody wants to do that. I- in some way, everybody wants to do that, 07:14.824 --> 07:18.434 seems almost as if we had a lot more freedom in the past, 07:18.444 --> 07:22.264 lot slower, right? When it wasn't fuel and metals 07:22.404 --> 07:25.024 and that kind of stuff you had to manage when you were running a boat. 07:25.064 --> 07:28.974 When it was like, um, you can just like sort of carve your own 07:29.064 --> 07:32.904 go out as f- as far as you want. In fact, as, as, as, as far back as like 07:32.944 --> 07:34.964 the 200, 300 BC, we 07:35.924 --> 07:38.844 ... There was an entire culture basically on 07:38.904 --> 07:42.454 Samuel Indians. Um, India was a, was a, was a very 07:42.564 --> 07:45.544 well-known, in fact, seafaring nation, and we ... 07:45.584 --> 07:49.494 The Ramayan and, and the Mahabharata and a lot of these like other things exist 07:49.524 --> 07:52.604 Cambodia, Thailand. Uh, in fact, they're very popular. 07:52.684 --> 07:56.324 And if you look at, like, when they got there, it's, you know, 07:56.344 --> 07:58.704 six centuries, and be- it's because we had boats. 07:58.744 --> 08:01.034 In fact, there were kings who came from ... 08:01.034 --> 08:04.104 There was basically a delegation that came from Thailand to India to sort 08:04.144 --> 08:07.684 king back. Uh, and that, that doesn't really say like everybody 08:07.704 --> 08:09.673 but like people were broadly going. 08:09.684 --> 08:12.504 I mean, the Tamil kings famously who like ran 08:12.544 --> 08:16.534 empire. And the idea that ... Or, or at least 08:16.564 --> 08:20.544 broadly speaking, the idea that like, um, you know, you know, back 08:20.564 --> 08:23.254 in the day, it, it used to be like take like two weeks to 08:23.254 --> 08:26.784 And, but that meant that like really the only thing stopping 08:26.844 --> 08:30.684 the fact that it would take two weeks, not so much the idea that 08:30.744 --> 08:32.664 like, well, you know, there's a highway there. 08:32.844 --> 08:35.254 These days people sort of only assume that like if you can drive, y- y- 08:35.264 --> 08:38.183 drive basically in like an hour or a day or some amount of time. 08:38.203 --> 08:40.744 Even a road trip, right? There's this feeling 08:40.824 --> 08:44.164 car and you'll ... It, it should be something you can do, right? 08:44.203 --> 08:47.344 It's not that like, "Oh, th- I'll, I'll just, I'll, I'll get there when I get 08:47.364 --> 08:50.644 there," is basically like something that e- very few people have the luxury 08:50.684 --> 08:54.574 for. Um, this sort of brings me, uh, 08:54.924 --> 08:56.684 weirdly enough to machine learning. 08:56.744 --> 09:00.704 Uh, a lot of people don't really think about, 09:00.804 --> 09:04.684 art as something actually present in their everyday life, 09:04.724 --> 09:06.934 no, because it isn't. Uh, if you sit, if you're, if you're, if you're in an 09:07.144 --> 09:10.624 apartment complex right now, you are sitting on, I mean, 09:10.684 --> 09:14.364 on a floor that's either statically filled with cement or 09:14.404 --> 09:18.344 tile. And, you know, people, people don't think about this because it's 09:18.384 --> 09:21.404 else are you supposed to make floors out of?" And it's like, I mean, people 09:21.484 --> 09:25.384 actually in temples, in, in most houses, and in a lot of places, took a 09:25.424 --> 09:28.434 lot of very good care to make sure that the houses looked very nice and they 09:28.544 --> 09:30.634 weren't just boxes that they slept inside. 09:30.724 --> 09:33.314 Um, you might say it was interior decorating and stuff. 09:33.324 --> 09:37.214 But, um, if you can only optimize for certain 09:37.224 --> 09:40.764 will only do those things. Um, that's 09:40.804 --> 09:43.944 where, uh, machine learning comes in. 09:44.024 --> 09:47.944 For me, machine learning, and for a lot of people obviously, 09:47.984 --> 09:51.104 of statistical methods attempting to get to the right answer reliably, 09:51.144 --> 09:54.724 often. And getting to stuff reliably often 09:54.884 --> 09:58.704 is good, obviously, and it should be used in 09:58.724 --> 10:02.284 places like, um, you know, like being able to install windows 10:02.304 --> 10:06.034 being able to, like, uh, sort of predict how many people need what 10:06.104 --> 10:09.824 food. But we don't do that, right? I mean, we don't do that at all. 10:09.844 --> 10:13.804 We're mostly just like, how do we make sure that, uh, 10:14.324 --> 10:17.344 running big corporations or continue to run big corporations 10:17.384 --> 10:21.144 and stuff? Because sort of the stock market, uh, 10:21.184 --> 10:22.704 it's completely discovered from reality. 10:22.724 --> 10:26.064 Like, what the price of a stock is, is basically just like, 10:26.104 --> 10:29.924 it's gonna go up? And, um, you know, the, 10:29.964 --> 10:33.444 the, the, the, the idea of the special interest group 10:33.504 --> 10:36.684 there, uh, sink. And then for technology, it's like, "Oh, well, what do the 10:36.724 --> 10:39.734 technologists really think is gonna be the future?" 10:39.734 --> 10:43.354 Us, us rich people can sort of speculate on 10:43.424 --> 10:44.864 market, but the future in that way. 10:44.964 --> 10:45.264 And 10:46.104 --> 10:48.804 as it turns out, the future is not a very profitable thing. 10:48.844 --> 10:52.744 It ends up, people end up living in boxes and, uh, 10:52.784 --> 10:55.264 because that's, you know, weirdly easier to optimize. 10:55.304 --> 10:58.384 I don't think it's intentional, but like it, it does feel like that a lot, 10:58.424 --> 11:02.114 it? That like, you know, if you're living in a city and 11:02.164 --> 11:04.454 know, if you work in corporate job, you're basically just going from like this 11:04.484 --> 11:07.664 to that box, to this box, to that box, and everybody's stuck during commute and 11:07.724 --> 11:11.044 everybody's stuck here, and everybody really just wants to be able 11:11.124 --> 11:14.964 And, you know, um, there's been this craze around 11:15.044 --> 11:17.764 in, in India again, there's been this craze around programming 11:18.184 --> 11:20.214 sort of get out there because, you know, everybody knows that like, oh, well, 11:20.224 --> 11:21.454 Indians are really good at programming. 11:21.464 --> 11:23.973 You know, they, they have all these Silicon Valley jobs 11:24.004 --> 11:27.984 there. Um, and that's obviously got a lot more to 11:28.004 --> 11:30.964 do with like family pressure than it has to do with actually, with actually 11:31.844 --> 11:34.244 being able to move there and, and, and be really well. 11:34.264 --> 11:37.504 Because to be a Silicon Valley programmer, I mean, you basically need to know the 11:37.564 --> 11:40.024 right people, you need to have the right degrees, 11:40.084 --> 11:43.864 really interesting things, um, that sort of push the frontier in 11:43.944 --> 11:46.704 that direction. But anybody who's worked in Silicon Valley 11:47.204 --> 11:50.144 nine out of 10 of these things are basically just trying to make Uber 11:50.204 --> 11:52.794 And at the time Uber were solving ... 11:52.824 --> 11:54.624 No, it wasn't solving a problem, right? 11:54.684 --> 11:58.644 It was just like, "Hey, we'll, we'll just, we will sort of take away the agency 11:58.684 --> 12:02.174 of people to be able to negotiate, uh, taxis and to be able to negotiate all this 12:02.224 --> 12:02.984 other stuff." And 12:03.944 --> 12:06.944 that sort of, all that happened. You know, programmers 12:07.004 --> 12:10.872 became-... heroes sort of overnight because they 12:10.992 --> 12:14.472 to identify or at least give this impression that, like, "Oh, c- 12:14.652 --> 12:18.572 really smart things, um, where we can identify, 12:18.592 --> 12:21.792 uh, you know, places where, like, everybody goes, all these problems are, 12:21.832 --> 12:24.452 we can just, like, make more money, um, by 12:25.372 --> 12:28.292 doing a gig economy, right? Or doing some other thing." Because yeah, 12:28.332 --> 12:30.692 society where, like, everybody's moving to cities 12:30.752 --> 12:34.672 out, uh, what they really want or, you know, what 12:34.712 --> 12:37.412 this law firm, how this law firm's going to hire me. 12:37.602 --> 12:41.152 And not on the, like, really core interesting stuff 12:41.212 --> 12:45.042 and, um, how your family and your friends see you 12:45.192 --> 12:48.112 the really important, like, things that are really special to you, you know, 12:48.172 --> 12:52.042 time moves forward. Um, it might not seem like machine learning 12:52.112 --> 12:55.771 is related but, like, that's what these computer scientists 12:55.812 --> 12:59.192 They're able to create, like, probabilistic machines that broadly tell 12:59.232 --> 13:03.112 people, you know, people... and then really they tell people where 13:03.212 --> 13:05.862 they should be and where they should congregate, and, like, really obvious... 13:05.862 --> 13:07.292 this is like really obvious stuff. 13:07.312 --> 13:10.622 It's on- on so many levels, it's just like low hanging fruit of, like, 13:10.692 --> 13:14.122 uh, in commercial areas people hang out, so, like, autos should... 13:14.132 --> 13:17.152 like, autos or bikes or, or cars should, like, hang out around there. 13:17.232 --> 13:21.192 And, uh, if programmers are your heroes then, you know, 13:21.212 --> 13:22.252 their own armies. And 13:23.172 --> 13:27.092 in the modern era the army is the corporation, and 13:27.112 --> 13:31.052 like, armies exist to like defend a population 13:31.132 --> 13:34.832 by destroying other people, armies, um, are very 13:34.872 --> 13:38.372 violence oriented, right? They, they come with the idea of, like, money, 13:38.412 --> 13:40.462 you basically, you basically have to go... 13:40.612 --> 13:44.372 It- it's ridiculously difficult to feed an 13:44.452 --> 13:47.512 And it, it, it's basically like where economics in, 13:47.552 --> 13:51.052 economics and money begins because, uh, you're not really gonna argue with a guy 13:51.132 --> 13:54.032 who's got, like, a big sword and she's passing through and he's gonna, 13:54.112 --> 13:57.732 your, like, like, if, uh... ruin your village if, if, 13:57.812 --> 14:00.532 And basically if you want to stop that raiding you basically just say, 14:00.572 --> 14:04.562 here's money that has the face of this king over there," and the, the army 14:04.632 --> 14:07.082 can go really far and basically keep, like, buying more... 14:07.852 --> 14:11.312 keep getting food from, like, people who are, like, supplying. 14:11.392 --> 14:14.912 Uh, it made longer and longer trips possible for bigger 14:14.932 --> 14:18.852 groups, um, and it didn't work very well 14:18.952 --> 14:22.762 back in the day because people would get diseases and eventually a lot of people 14:22.812 --> 14:26.082 would die, and so armies and hordes became really 14:26.252 --> 14:29.512 fast-moving things that would just, like, chew through, like, a lot of stuff. 14:29.592 --> 14:33.512 And again, they were able to do that because armies are sort of 14:33.592 --> 14:36.722 designed to prevent desertion. That's why everybody wears the same hats 14:36.752 --> 14:40.192 everybody wears the same thing and everybody has the same, like, food 14:40.252 --> 14:43.612 because when you're in an army, you're really scared to leave it. 14:43.632 --> 14:45.402 You're really scared to leave it. And 14:46.472 --> 14:50.412 if this sounds like corporate, um, where you don't really want to 14:50.512 --> 14:54.152 be there but you're terrified of leaving, that's because corporations basically 14:54.172 --> 14:56.771 took the, the managerial model from, from military corporations. 14:56.792 --> 14:58.781 And this isn't even, like, mean... 14:58.832 --> 15:00.852 saying that I owe money and violence are inherently connected. 15:00.872 --> 15:03.752 They are but, you know... Um, this is just like lit-... 15:03.862 --> 15:07.612 the British came up with the East India Corporation, which means the 15:07.652 --> 15:10.692 company's for profit to do this 15:10.792 --> 15:13.771 exactly, right? In the modern era of the corporation 15:13.832 --> 15:17.712 where the company is the creditor and the people working 15:17.732 --> 15:21.381 for it are debtors, and yet, um, and, and, and 15:21.412 --> 15:24.812 yet the situation of power is reversed, basically only happened 15:24.832 --> 15:28.652 because the East India Company had gotten, like, a fan- fantabulous amount of 15:28.692 --> 15:31.381 riches by, by going off to India and make some... 15:31.412 --> 15:34.252 you know, moving stuff back because of sinkage of 15:34.292 --> 15:37.412 lo- lot of other stuff. I mean, half of their thing was that, like, 15:37.432 --> 15:40.912 had, like, you know, weird kinds of, like, social slavery systems that nobody 15:40.952 --> 15:43.152 really wanted that so they just kept revolting against their kings. 15:43.222 --> 15:44.692 But nobody wanted to desert, right? 15:44.712 --> 15:48.502 Because everybody had sort- sort of gotten this feeling that, like, 15:48.572 --> 15:52.082 we've overthrown all the kings, now we're free and now everything's 15:52.092 --> 15:55.462 and, and now the system of, like, deserting isn't the... 15:55.472 --> 15:59.402 and the anti-system of, like, deserting is in place, and that sucks." 15:59.412 --> 16:03.312 (laughs) "That, that really sucks for us." So, um, 16:03.692 --> 16:07.172 what happens when you are really in a system of holding back 16:07.271 --> 16:10.912 seeing fun as a viable thing you can do. 16:10.932 --> 16:14.572 When people do a festival... people broadly do festivals when 16:14.612 --> 16:18.542 they're... with their family or when they're in a sys- when they're in, 16:18.572 --> 16:22.512 know, a thriving system where they're like, "Oh, 16:22.612 --> 16:24.161 well-structured, like, social... 16:24.172 --> 16:26.632 we want to, like, reverse or alter some, like, social arrangement that, that we 16:26.652 --> 16:30.271 already have." And machine learning will tell you that, like, 16:30.312 --> 16:33.072 festivals are very good for, like, flogging products. 16:33.082 --> 16:37.072 And this is just a consumerism thing, but you just feel like a guilty child 16:37.112 --> 16:40.472 for not being able to provide stuff for your family. 16:40.531 --> 16:44.472 Uh, and this really is... this really is, um, I think my, my core point 16:44.592 --> 16:48.152 that these structures make you feel like, uh, guilty children 16:48.932 --> 16:52.712 whereas you shouldn't feel like a guilty child for not wanting a 16:52.852 --> 16:56.722 world where artificial intelligences, uh, decide your every move and 16:56.752 --> 17:00.572 move things around, because it's not the world that, like, 17:00.652 --> 17:04.112 humans tend to build. Like, you 17:04.152 --> 17:07.752 know, we don't optimize for the really, like, insane stuff of, like, how many 17:08.632 --> 17:10.992 concrete houses can be built super quickly. 17:11.031 --> 17:14.232 We tend to optimize for stuff like what kind of stuff will, like, last 17:14.972 --> 17:18.432 for the long term, what kind of socio-religious cultural 17:18.472 --> 17:22.392 practices are true, what kind of books do you want to read, 17:22.412 --> 17:25.872 our spiritual leaders, how do we ensure maximum freedom. 17:25.882 --> 17:29.592 And machines just don't do that, like... uh, there's basically no fun involved. 17:29.692 --> 17:31.412 And I have maybe another take 17:32.232 --> 17:32.692 about 17:33.512 --> 17:36.672 the ultimate system of holding back, um, the future. 17:36.692 --> 17:39.592 Uh, and, and not the future, like, what, what, what people today think the future 17:39.632 --> 17:43.012 is, but I think I will get to that after Sam's points. 17:43.052 --> 17:47.042 Okay. Awesome. Uh, you have definitely given a lot of points, 17:47.072 --> 17:49.512 of which I think I need to think more about. Yeah. 17:49.552 --> 17:53.212 I think maybe I should start by giving my 17:53.292 --> 17:56.792 points which definitely have some overlap with yours, then maybe I'll, like, 17:56.912 --> 18:00.252 uh, like, you know, give my reply to your points more 18:00.292 --> 18:03.632 So the topic is, you know, why do people hold 18:03.692 --> 18:07.500 back, uh-... I mean, assumes that, look, okay, 18:07.540 --> 18:11.520 people either want to do more or people, you know, could be doing more that 18:11.560 --> 18:14.870 they're not even aware of, but they choose not to. 18:14.879 --> 18:18.180 And then the question is... And, like, I agree, like, 18:18.200 --> 18:22.090 Like, most people could be leading way better 18:22.159 --> 18:26.000 do. And better is kind of subjective, but even by their own idea of what is 18:26.060 --> 18:28.210 better, you know, most people can be leading better lives. 18:28.240 --> 18:30.760 Even by, you know, my idea of what is better, you know, most people could be 18:30.919 --> 18:34.580 leading better lives. Like, uh, I think that's just, like, 18:35.280 --> 18:37.580 not even really controversial to say (laughs) at this point. 18:37.620 --> 18:41.060 Like, people who are holding back on themselves 18:41.100 --> 18:43.800 back, you know, for X, Y, Z, whatever reasons, and, you know, 18:43.820 --> 18:46.530 doing more with my, my life." Like, that's a very common sentiment to hear 18:46.560 --> 18:50.320 people. (laughs) So, yeah, like, this is definitely obviously true. 18:50.340 --> 18:52.970 We're just probably trying to understand more deeply in the reasons why is this 18:53.000 --> 18:56.659 even true. Uh, yeah, so I think there is, like, the more 18:56.740 --> 19:00.460 immediate, like, local kind of perspective of, you know, 19:00.480 --> 19:04.440 "Oh, I took a corporate job. Why did I take a corporate job?" Or, 19:04.480 --> 19:07.780 know, do this hobby, but I chose not to do it," or, 19:07.820 --> 19:09.678 asked that person out, but I didn't do it," you know. 19:09.700 --> 19:13.120 Like, there's, like, a very local kind of perspective, 19:13.139 --> 19:17.040 a very global, you know, like, historical, geopolitical kind 19:17.080 --> 19:20.720 of perspective that can actually even explain a lot of the local stuff. 19:20.760 --> 19:23.920 Like, you know, if you have to specify as to know, 19:23.980 --> 19:25.270 out on a date?" maybe the actual... 19:25.280 --> 19:28.550 You can, you can correct that in your deeper, deeper, you know, 19:28.600 --> 19:32.560 geopolitical or, you know, like, capitalist, whatever, theory of, you know, 19:32.600 --> 19:35.460 is how society is structured, therefore, you know, like, people are forming less 19:35.500 --> 19:38.720 relationships or something. Like, you can analyze it in both ways. 19:38.740 --> 19:41.940 So I think I'll first start with the very local thing of, you know, just focusing 19:41.980 --> 19:45.240 on one individual and why does that one individual hold back? 19:45.340 --> 19:49.300 Uh, for an individual, I mean, people have all sorts of different 19:49.340 --> 19:52.379 models of, you know, how do you predict human behavior? 19:52.480 --> 19:54.300 Uh, how do you understand human behavior? 19:54.399 --> 19:55.560 Uh, some of those models 19:56.379 --> 19:59.940 I like maybe a little bit less. Uh, one model I like a lot is basically just 20:00.080 --> 20:04.020 Maslow's hierarchy, which starts with, you know, at the lower 20:04.060 --> 20:06.860 levels, like, people's basic needs are, you know, food, water, shelter. 20:06.879 --> 20:08.860 They need to be protected from violence. 20:08.899 --> 20:12.639 And then at the next level comes, uh, you know, people 20:12.720 --> 20:16.679 want love, uh, self-esteem. They want to be respected by other people, 20:16.700 --> 20:20.500 et cetera. Uh, and then at the last comes, you know, the 20:20.560 --> 20:22.970 self-actualization thing, which is, like, poorly defined. 20:22.980 --> 20:26.600 But basically it's if all of this was satisfying and you didn't have to 20:26.620 --> 20:28.480 any of this, you know, what would you naturally do? 20:28.560 --> 20:32.340 And, yeah, a lot of people do hypothesize, like, for a lot of people, that will be 20:32.379 --> 20:35.980 something, like, fun, like, maybe making art, maybe making games, 20:36.040 --> 20:39.560 creating some new ideas, values, et cetera. Yeah. 20:39.620 --> 20:43.280 I think that's basically true. And, yeah, so one 20:43.379 --> 20:46.960 explanation for why do people hold back is because there are actual incentives 20:46.980 --> 20:50.960 are pushing against them that, okay, if you go outside, you know, what you're 20:51.000 --> 20:54.679 supposed to do, either A, you will literally starve and 20:54.720 --> 20:58.379 die, B, you will literally be killed, you will be imprisoned, or, you know, the 20:58.399 --> 21:02.100 less extreme version of that is, yeah, like, yeah, you'll be fine, but, you know, 21:02.139 --> 21:04.899 your friends will look at you weird. Your family will look at you weird. 21:04.920 --> 21:08.899 You'll find it harder to, you know, make relationships, et cetera, uh, 21:09.000 --> 21:12.879 the system we are in right now. So I think that is part of the local 21:13.159 --> 21:16.879 kind of perspective. And then you can ask in a more deeper, 21:17.360 --> 21:20.220 where is all this coming from? Like, who's threatening violence on you if you, 21:20.260 --> 21:23.179 know, deviate from the script? You know, who's, you know, withholding love from you 21:23.220 --> 21:26.720 if you deviate from the script?" Uh, then you can ask those deeper 21:26.760 --> 21:29.639 questions. Uh, I think, yeah, this is one reason. 21:29.700 --> 21:33.569 Another reason that you can bring up has nothing 21:33.639 --> 21:36.460 to do with incentives and more to do with imagination, which 21:37.320 --> 21:40.270 it is outside of people's imagination even what they could be doing with their 21:40.320 --> 21:44.290 life, which is like, okay, you have escaped the trap of... 21:44.340 --> 21:47.659 All these traps of, okay, you know, like, there are basic traps. 21:47.700 --> 21:50.000 Okay, you do need a certain amount of money to 21:50.040 --> 21:51.879 You do need, you know, certain resources. 21:51.940 --> 21:55.720 You do need a country with, you know, certain amount of law and order so that, 21:55.780 --> 21:58.220 know, your life is not literally in danger. 21:58.320 --> 22:01.100 Uh, you do need certain minimum amount of 22:01.110 --> 22:04.040 But once you have all those things, okay, you might say, "Oh, I'm now free to do 22:04.080 --> 22:07.300 whatever I want." But at some level, you're still l- limited by 22:07.340 --> 22:11.200 imagination. You will still look at, okay, here are all the ideas of 22:11.340 --> 22:15.260 other people's cool lives. Like, oh, maybe, you know, this person became a 22:15.320 --> 22:18.659 film star, or this person became a singer, or, you know, that person became, like, 22:18.679 --> 22:21.159 a digital nomad and he just traveled all around his whole life. 22:21.179 --> 22:24.069 Like, or, you know, that person became a philosopher. 22:24.179 --> 22:27.170 Or, like, you will, you will always have scripts of even... 22:27.170 --> 22:31.080 And even if you're deviating from the script, there are still, like, here 22:31.159 --> 22:34.560 are the people who have deviated and those are just new scripts. 22:34.639 --> 22:38.540 And, yeah, you will by default end up following 22:38.920 --> 22:42.020 some mix and match of those. And definitely your life could still be 22:42.040 --> 22:45.960 But I do want to hypothesize, like, there are things, like, that 22:46.000 --> 22:49.800 our imagination. And examples of this are, like, if you 22:49.840 --> 22:53.699 were living in a society where slavery was common, it 22:53.740 --> 22:56.720 may have been, like, literally beyond your imagination that, 22:56.740 --> 22:58.179 society which didn't have slavery. 22:58.220 --> 23:02.080 Like, that's just so taken for granted for you 23:02.120 --> 23:05.360 this, like, is surprising to you. Like, I think humanity has made a bunch of 23:05.400 --> 23:09.120 moral progress. I think this is a general, uh, you know, lens difference that 23:09.460 --> 23:12.960 Athish and I have, which is, yeah, I think, you know, the future, uh, the, 23:13.000 --> 23:15.730 are right now is actually a lot better than the past in a lot of different ways. 23:15.760 --> 23:17.840 And one of those ways, I think, is moral progress. 23:17.900 --> 23:21.580 I think, uh, most humans have actually progressed in 23:21.600 --> 23:25.260 moral values in at least some ways compared to people in many previous 23:25.280 --> 23:28.400 civilizations. Uh, yeah, or the fact 23:28.409 --> 23:32.220 that, you know, like, women have rights, children have more rights as 23:32.240 --> 23:34.730 compared to the, they did in the past. 23:34.820 --> 23:38.429 Uh, yeah, uh, yeah. (laughs) And definitely, like, even in the past- 23:38.429 --> 23:38.570 (laughs) 23:38.570 --> 23:42.520 ... there may have been these, uh, few, uh, people who realized, okay, 23:42.560 --> 23:45.379 right, like, you know, we have, you know, democracy in the US, you know, why don't 23:45.400 --> 23:47.920 women get to vote? Like, there must have been a few people asking 23:47.940 --> 23:50.909 But for most people it was just taken for granted that, look, 23:50.960 --> 23:53.560 person who takes the decisions in the house, therefore man 23:53.580 --> 23:56.100 the right to vote. You know, women don't get to vote, et cetera. 23:56.139 --> 24:00.080 So, I think there's a, definitely another thing of just 24:00.100 --> 24:03.760 think that's been true in the past. I think that's still true right now. 24:03.860 --> 24:07.760 Uh, yeah, so I think these are broadly the two things 24:07.780 --> 24:11.580 back. One is just incentives that are actually actively pushing against 24:11.620 --> 24:14.520 the other is, you know, imagination deficit, which is, you know, 24:14.580 --> 24:18.500 want to be completely free, uh, they are, like, actually figuring out new ways 24:18.560 --> 24:20.720 to live is, like, actually an ongoing project. 24:20.820 --> 24:24.720 Uh, yeah, now if you ask, you know, more deeper reasons, okay, 24:24.740 --> 24:27.900 why are people being held back? Uh-Yeah. 24:27.940 --> 24:31.860 I mean, obviously, uh, like nation states, et cetera are a 24:31.900 --> 24:34.960 huge part of it. Like, like, I 24:35.020 --> 24:38.940 mean, I do s- and I know some people might disagree with 24:39.000 --> 24:42.860 but, like, I fundamentally see, like, you know, like, like, uh, 24:43.000 --> 24:45.500 STEM fields, like, you know, science, technology, engineering, math is, like, 24:45.520 --> 24:48.480 prediction and control of systems not including human beings. 24:48.490 --> 24:50.910 And, you know, social sciences are, like, prediction and control of systems 24:50.960 --> 24:54.700 including human beings. And then you ask, okay, like if you have a social system, 24:54.720 --> 24:57.220 why do you want to predict it? Why do you want to control it at all? 24:57.310 --> 25:01.149 And the basic answer to that, at least for me, is to, 25:01.180 --> 25:05.100 like, troll mankind's incredible capacity for 25:05.180 --> 25:09.160 Uh, I think homo sapiens is capable of way more violence than 25:09.200 --> 25:12.840 any other species on this planet. Like, you know, chimpanzees are violent. 25:12.860 --> 25:14.510 They are capable of violence. Like, you can ... 25:14.520 --> 25:17.250 Like, chimpanzees can form a group of, you know, here are 10 chimpanzees, 25:17.340 --> 25:20.500 the other 10 ch- chimpanzees. You know, we have a resource scarcity. 25:20.560 --> 25:23.000 Not all of us can have the resources, therefore we are going to fight for it. 25:23.020 --> 25:26.980 Like, some other species are capable of this, but, like, humans 25:27.040 --> 25:30.020 species that is capable of doing this at scale where we can be like, you know, "We 25:30.080 --> 25:33.280 are literally millions of people here and we are going to form an army 25:33.320 --> 25:36.780 going to, you know, colonize the other army, we 25:36.800 --> 25:39.600 going to take their stuff," et cetera, et cetera. 25:39.720 --> 25:43.700 And yeah, therefore, you know, if you just let humans 25:43.720 --> 25:47.040 do whatever the hell they want, by default what's going to happen 25:47.060 --> 25:50.040 going to form an army and just colonize everyone else 25:50.080 --> 25:53.220 stuff. Like, that just happens by default is my 25:53.240 --> 25:57.220 stance. And therefore you need certain social 25:57.240 --> 26:00.820 people in check and to, you know, restrict people's freedom. 26:00.879 --> 26:04.400 And then there is question of, you know, what are good social systems to restrict 26:04.480 --> 26:06.460 people's freedom? What are bad social systems? 26:06.470 --> 26:09.139 Can we make progress in inventing better s- social systems? 26:09.160 --> 26:13.060 But yeah, I do basically see nation states as an 26:13.139 --> 26:17.120 as an example of this, you know, churches, temples as an example of this 26:17.220 --> 26:21.139 where you provide like, here is the script you need to follow, and if 26:21.180 --> 26:23.080 you deviate from the script you will be punished. 26:23.100 --> 26:25.920 But as long as you follow the script, you know, here are the, here 26:25.940 --> 26:27.850 you get within the system. And 26:28.740 --> 26:32.330 I, like, quickly, like b- yeah, I do think all of this 26:32.400 --> 26:36.029 is true. And, uh, yeah, I mean another ... 26:36.059 --> 26:39.580 Yeah, so this is one thing about, you know, cont- 26:39.600 --> 26:42.650 for violence. And there are maybe good ways of doing that, 26:42.760 --> 26:46.020 And another thing is to some extent, I mean, systems are just 26:46.159 --> 26:50.069 uncontrolled, like the race for accumulating more wealth 26:50.139 --> 26:53.120 resources and power is just at some level an uncontrolled 26:53.139 --> 26:56.480 It has been at some level uncontrolled in the past, it is still uncontrolled today. 26:56.500 --> 27:00.340 Like, nobody can control, let's say the, you know, US China race. 27:00.360 --> 27:02.840 You know, people are trying, but, you know, here is this one country 27:02.900 --> 27:05.860 more power, the other country wants more power, 27:05.880 --> 27:09.659 And then that race, you know, drives pressures further down, which 27:10.680 --> 27:14.520 if let's say this country says, you know, "I need more," like 27:14.560 --> 27:17.569 this count- like leaders of that country say, "Okay, 27:17.659 --> 27:20.210 because, you know, we want our country to be more powerful," 27:20.240 --> 27:24.020 right, we also want our companies to compete with 27:24.060 --> 27:27.620 more resources so that we have more resources." 27:27.639 --> 27:31.500 that pressure downwards of, okay, so maybe the companies will then go tell 27:31.520 --> 27:34.600 parents, "Okay, you need to raise your children a certain 27:34.620 --> 27:37.980 certain education system so that your children produce more resources 27:38.060 --> 27:41.780 produce more resources so that they produce more resources." Like, 27:41.820 --> 27:43.580 competitive cycle that gets set up. 27:43.620 --> 27:47.000 And I agree as a result people end up 27:47.080 --> 27:51.000 optimized on very certain narrow metrics of like, like people 27:51.040 --> 27:54.960 are s- seen by, by many of these systems, people are seen as valuable only 27:55.200 --> 27:57.860 based on financially how valuable they are. I ... 27:57.900 --> 28:00.840 That ends up, you know, lobotomizing a lot of people's freedom. 28:00.900 --> 28:04.870 I think that's basically true. Yeah, I think that's at a high level, you know, 28:04.900 --> 28:08.690 my perspective. I'm curious what you think about all of 28:08.720 --> 28:09.280 this. 28:09.320 --> 28:11.420 Oh, we're on time too. (laughs) Okay. Yeah. 28:11.460 --> 28:13.960 Great, um, uh, articles out there. 28:14.120 --> 28:17.400 Um, I think the reason ... And I think this is a good place to start. 28:17.520 --> 28:21.300 I think the reason we disagree on, like, why we think the 28:21.340 --> 28:24.440 past ... Uh, no, I sort of think the past was an excellent 28:24.520 --> 28:27.889 place, and the f- the future is a very different kind... 28:27.920 --> 28:31.159 I mean, the present and the future is a very different kind of thing, 28:31.300 --> 28:35.200 is that in the past, um, you 28:35.220 --> 28:38.659 know, humans were not one big 28:38.940 --> 28:42.760 chunk, right? It's not like all of us sort of 28:42.840 --> 28:45.440 one thing and then the rest of us believed something else. 28:45.500 --> 28:48.740 You know, even back in the day as, as literally as soon as language has 28:48.800 --> 28:52.480 existed, we all sort of 28:52.560 --> 28:56.330 understood that like, okay, well other people exist and other people 28:56.400 --> 29:00.139 can talk and other people can like say things that they don't really mean, which 29:00.180 --> 29:04.120 means there must be some people who like don't believe the things 29:04.260 --> 29:06.250 I'm saying or things I believe. You know what I mean? 29:06.260 --> 29:08.470 Like, philosophy is a completely normal ... 29:08.480 --> 29:11.240 People sort of act like, "Oh, this is something only the French (laughs) have 29:11.260 --> 29:14.880 of managed to come up with." Uh, but, but asking the question of like why do we 29:14.900 --> 29:18.400 know what we know is ... It's fundamental, like it's primal, right? 29:18.420 --> 29:21.179 Like e- ev- y- you ... The second you start talking to a kid, 29:21.220 --> 29:24.860 asking like all kinds of questions like, "Hey, you know, wh- what do you believe? 29:24.980 --> 29:28.690 Why do you believe that thing? You know, wh- what's that?" And kids believe all 29:28.740 --> 29:32.150 kinds of completely insane nonsense stuff, but they are sort of trying to create 29:32.180 --> 29:34.960 like a coherent model, as are the rest of us. 29:35.120 --> 29:38.300 Um, you know, someone might argue that like the modern 29:38.520 --> 29:42.230 eras, uh, is the most coherent. You know, we have science and we have 29:42.260 --> 29:45.200 technology and we have all of this stuff. 29:45.240 --> 29:48.800 And to which I'd say, I mean, if we have all this science 29:48.840 --> 29:52.060 technology stuff, why are people still living such 29:52.720 --> 29:55.600 broadly, like, unfulfilling lives? I mean, why do so many people ... 29:56.400 --> 29:59.780 why are so many people still poor if we have a surplus of food? 29:59.800 --> 30:02.860 Why are people starved to death? And you might say that like, "Oh, well, 30:02.940 --> 30:06.040 go around feeding everybody. That's socialism." Mm, you know, 30:06.060 --> 30:07.520 pretty good job feeding everybody. 30:07.600 --> 30:11.520 Um, you know, most cultures, a lot of the cultures that, 30:11.600 --> 30:12.880 day, they were, were able to 30:13.860 --> 30:17.659 basically create like complicated construction, 30:17.680 --> 30:21.020 Uh, the pyramids, for example, you know, everybody knows that they hired like 30:21.480 --> 30:21.780 the, 30:22.659 --> 30:26.330 the basically paid their labor really well and had skilled artisans telling other 30:26.340 --> 30:29.470 people. What a lot of people don't know is that like there 30:29.480 --> 30:30.960 of some of them. On the outside, there was nothing. 30:30.980 --> 30:34.540 On the inside, there was some graffiti, which is, which is kind of point that like 30:34.560 --> 30:38.060 humans have always been like these insanely like imaginative and like, 30:38.100 --> 30:40.860 thinking creatures. And I think that's truly something 30:40.920 --> 30:44.812 everybody else, right? We play, we come up with jokes, we ...... jokes, 30:44.822 --> 30:48.282 Like, like, that, that... have you ever heard a chimpanzee tell a 30:48.282 --> 30:49.881 (laughs) it wouldn't be very funny. 30:49.932 --> 30:53.202 Be like, "Oh, where's the banana?" (laughs) You always 30:53.351 --> 30:56.141 complicated kinds of jokes. That's why that's something I believe, 30:56.212 --> 30:59.252 think the past was a monolith, the way I don't think the present 30:59.272 --> 31:01.172 I think the present is actually a lot more monolithic, right? 31:01.192 --> 31:04.861 Because more people than ever live in cities and more people than ever do very 31:04.891 --> 31:07.851 similar kinds of jobs. Um, and not just jobs. 31:07.871 --> 31:11.482 You can perceive the job as, as a very weirdly specific thing, which is 31:11.512 --> 31:14.952 that you go somewhere or, or like somebody tells you what to do 31:14.962 --> 31:17.351 of vaguely create economic value. 31:17.371 --> 31:21.062 You know, advertising is like, well, like 10 people saw this ad 31:21.091 --> 31:23.932 like one person clicked on it, so like my job is like good. 31:23.952 --> 31:27.111 And it's like, well, the platform that did that has to deliver it 31:27.172 --> 31:29.022 that. You know, it just works (inaudible) . 31:29.032 --> 31:32.371 When, when, when people sort of use Marx and say, "Oh, 31:32.412 --> 31:34.752 work," I, I don't think that's what Marx meant at 31:34.792 --> 31:37.932 I think he was talking more about like the kind of people who come up with like the 31:38.072 --> 31:41.672 design of the factory are like extremely, like, like way more like 31:41.692 --> 31:44.952 important than the people who are like funding the building of 31:44.972 --> 31:48.262 Because, right, if you don't know how to build 31:48.291 --> 31:50.702 know (inaudible) . That's what he means by abstract work. 31:50.792 --> 31:54.732 So it's like abstractly related to the thing you're actually doing, as opposed 31:54.752 --> 31:57.912 to like abstractly made, you know, sort of far, far away. 31:57.972 --> 32:01.312 And this is actually where that point about like local perspective I 32:01.452 --> 32:05.432 really important. Um, we really do live in an information age, 32:05.472 --> 32:09.432 right? I am with you, and I think the modern era is 32:09.512 --> 32:13.032 vaguely postmodern in that, uh, va- You know, I, I don't believe 32:13.052 --> 32:15.631 going around like, you know, creating their personal brands, 32:15.672 --> 32:19.492 like people are trying to figure out something new or something only 32:19.572 --> 32:21.432 they know and then try to express that to the world. 32:21.452 --> 32:24.891 Everybody's trying that all the time. Uh, usually people fail, and that's fine. 32:24.902 --> 32:28.371 Uh, there's no issue there. Um, but, you 32:28.391 --> 32:32.152 know, if you've read de Cuzco, um, you know, even like 32:32.212 --> 32:36.152 insane, especially insane people, like know that they're acting out 32:36.212 --> 32:40.091 of some, some reason, some structure or something 32:40.131 --> 32:41.611 that they can't really explain to you. 32:41.631 --> 32:44.052 It's like the voice in their head told them like something insane. 32:44.062 --> 32:46.312 But like, you know, there's reasons why 32:46.331 --> 32:50.322 first place, right? Like, it was probably a response to some traumatic 32:50.432 --> 32:54.121 started talking to them, and then what this person thinks is a, is 32:54.251 --> 32:57.641 a, is just a voice in your head is probably actually just like a response. 32:57.672 --> 33:00.871 I mean, you know, humans have a very interesting response, 33:00.891 --> 33:04.380 you start moving, second you start walking, 33:04.380 --> 33:07.942 take a little process like, like hearing the same way you do 33:08.032 --> 33:11.952 down, um, when you stop moving. Uh, even when you start talking, 33:12.032 --> 33:14.141 of suppresses it by thought, what other people are saying. 33:14.192 --> 33:16.641 And it's probably some of these wires getting crossed in your head. 33:16.672 --> 33:19.821 I'm not saying it's just trauma, but people have really good reasons why 33:19.871 --> 33:22.452 they're, why they're doing stuff. 33:22.472 --> 33:26.272 And in the current like sort of global, global, like 33:26.292 --> 33:28.712 perspec- If, if you want to move away from the local 33:28.732 --> 33:32.472 perspective, what should happen is that all kinds of 33:32.532 --> 33:36.172 people know all kinds of really cool and weird things and are able to 33:36.272 --> 33:39.812 implement them by traveling or by coming up with like 33:40.692 --> 33:44.652 new creative stuff or by being able to organize in really 33:44.672 --> 33:48.132 ways. Instead, you have most people trying to like, 33:48.152 --> 33:51.331 corporate, um, and everybody in corporate trying to get 33:51.391 --> 33:53.591 Um, you know, I kind of like the way Peter Feaver 33:53.632 --> 33:56.502 everybody on the inside is trying to get in 33:56.512 --> 33:58.831 the outside is trying to get in, and everybody on the outside 33:58.851 --> 34:01.132 And the real answer is just like walk out the front door. 34:01.182 --> 34:04.692 Which brings me to this point that you sort of mentioned that like, 34:04.831 --> 34:07.371 have progressed in terms of freedom. 34:07.452 --> 34:11.342 And freedom isn't rights. Free- freedom isn't like somebody else telling 34:11.351 --> 34:15.212 can like do this or do that. Right? Um, every right comes with like an 34:15.272 --> 34:17.152 obligation. Every right comes with a duty. 34:17.252 --> 34:20.792 Um, we, in the modern era especially, we've, we conceive of rights 34:20.831 --> 34:23.741 as like the counterpart to like duties, right? 34:23.741 --> 34:26.451 Like, you have to do this and so we'll give you that. 34:26.511 --> 34:30.411 And the argument basically went that like, um, look, 34:30.451 --> 34:33.672 it's only like landed white men in America, for example, 34:33.692 --> 34:36.831 the running of the society. And so they are the only ones who should 34:36.851 --> 34:39.462 you know, they control the land and, you know, they control the slaves, 34:39.471 --> 34:43.312 the working population. So they should be the ones who decide how 34:43.351 --> 34:46.411 policy and, you know, where people can go and the basic things, 34:46.431 --> 34:50.331 an H2O, how, how to shut that gas H. In India, I mean, there 34:50.371 --> 34:53.991 democracy, right? The kings, like the warriors 34:54.011 --> 34:57.552 this like collusion to be like, "Oh, you know, we just control, like, 34:57.592 --> 35:01.291 like labor and we control like where people stay." Uh, we control labor through 35:01.312 --> 35:05.252 like priestly stuff and we control, um, land through like kingly stuff. 35:05.272 --> 35:09.192 And then so we have like kingdoms vaguely where people can like go back and 35:09.232 --> 35:11.752 forth between each other. And clearly we didn't like that. 35:11.812 --> 35:14.452 Uh, a lot of people, like I said, rebelled against the British. 35:15.372 --> 35:18.592 And so this idea of like freedom sort of progressing in tiers 35:19.272 --> 35:21.992 doesn't really hold water to me because obviously people are still like 35:22.032 --> 35:24.582 ridiculously unfree, like fai- Like, yeah, obviously. 35:24.612 --> 35:28.162 I mean, you know, we are having this discussion in the context 35:28.252 --> 35:31.532 super intelligence showing up and taking away all of our freedom 35:31.652 --> 35:34.152 being able to say anything. Can say like, "No, we don't want that. 35:34.162 --> 35:37.892 We don't want it involved in our goddamn life." Um, which makes me feel obviously 35:37.952 --> 35:39.882 as if we're, we're not really free. 35:39.971 --> 35:43.322 So this idea that like, you know, we have to come up with all these like 35:43.372 --> 35:46.852 structures so that like our capacity for violence gets 35:46.912 --> 35:50.092 suppressed, that makes like, that, that... I, I kind of think- Yeah. ... 35:50.112 --> 35:54.032 that's backwards, right? Because like no matter how angry I 35:54.092 --> 35:57.892 get personally, right, I can only commit like X 35:57.952 --> 36:01.852 amount of violence against you. But if I go tell my brother that like, "Hey, I 36:01.892 --> 36:05.232 really hate this guy," I can be able to do like X square violence, like maybe like, 36:05.252 --> 36:07.822 you know, the two of us can coordinate really well 36:07.872 --> 36:11.172 like bar the door so I at least set Sina's like house on fire. 36:11.292 --> 36:14.532 Uh, you know, we, you know, we emotionally, we feel this way. 36:14.551 --> 36:18.032 But like I'm really only able to build a structure 36:18.392 --> 36:21.372 based on how many people I can convince, you know, you have around me. 36:22.051 --> 36:25.872 That's not how states work at all. I think a lot of people just like 36:25.892 --> 36:28.172 the state to mean like their parents. 36:28.182 --> 36:28.772 (laughs) 36:28.792 --> 36:28.952 (laughs) 36:28.971 --> 36:32.032 Uh, a lot of people just like extrapolate the 36:32.051 --> 36:35.511 individuals, like agreeing to like certain standards, 36:35.551 --> 36:38.082 for like arbitrary violence, right? 36:38.112 --> 36:41.912 It allows for people to be like, "I don't care what 36:41.992 --> 36:44.952 you have to say, I'm just going to like blow you up 36:44.992 --> 36:48.772 me and pay taxes to me and give me your food and like, you know, 36:48.892 --> 36:51.710 oil or give me like your..." The people have to like work.... 36:51.740 --> 36:53.909 to provide goods and services to me. 36:53.940 --> 36:55.720 You know, to, to me and my country and to my people. 36:55.759 --> 36:59.549 And they, it, it's simply that, this idea of, like, 36:59.660 --> 37:03.600 arbitrary violence, right? Like, a soldier in this army can kill a soldier 37:03.660 --> 37:05.660 army and it's not really personal. 37:05.680 --> 37:09.440 This is the same reason why, like, corporations in the civic 37:09.759 --> 37:13.670 space, uh, are able to, like, make people really afraid because it's 37:13.880 --> 37:16.620 I don't work hard at my job, right, if I don't, like, produce these reports or 37:16.660 --> 37:20.400 install these, like, programs or, like, um, do my 37:20.460 --> 37:24.380 job super well, like, the other people are gonna make more money and they're 37:24.420 --> 37:28.400 obviously gonna win. And it becomes who can, like, 37:28.440 --> 37:31.900 best services, who can scare you, who can undercut the other guy. 37:31.920 --> 37:34.700 And it doesn't make anybody more free. 37:34.740 --> 37:38.360 It just makes arbitrary violence, you know, economic vi- uh, 37:38.840 --> 37:42.420 in this case, just more likely. It means that the small 37:42.540 --> 37:46.279 players, you know, who cater to, like, maybe, like, two or three clients or, 37:46.299 --> 37:49.610 you know, who have no clients at all to sit around 37:49.620 --> 37:52.900 security guards or as, like, shopkeepers, you know, who have a lot of stuff but 37:52.920 --> 37:56.380 can't, like, sell it, like, well enough. I mean, this stuff sucks. 37:56.420 --> 38:00.410 No- nobody... No, no, no, no. Nobody's actually, like, arguing that, 38:00.420 --> 38:03.870 know, if we redistributed, like, you know, if we, if we, if we just, 38:03.920 --> 38:06.450 like, you know... Yeah. I mean, I'm, I'm... 38:06.540 --> 38:10.360 That's my point that, like, I don't think, like, as a whole, our freedom 38:10.460 --> 38:11.899 may have gotten bigger, but 38:12.740 --> 38:13.940 on the day-to-day, I mean, 38:14.900 --> 38:15.290 it, it, it 38:16.259 --> 38:19.820 really just is, you know, like, a problem, like, an actual problem. 38:19.900 --> 38:23.390 Uh, and this is the kind of system that a super intelligence... 38:23.400 --> 38:27.020 Where a super intelligent system starts making sense because it's like, what if it 38:27.040 --> 38:30.850 can give us our freedom back? And, like, it can't. Obviously, it can't. 38:30.860 --> 38:34.470 It's, it's, it's the apotheosis of the system, not, 38:34.500 --> 38:37.620 Yeah, I'm realizing because the points you've 38:37.740 --> 38:41.299 political, I'm worried our debate is just going to 38:41.340 --> 38:45.080 devolve into a... Either a, you know, pro capitalism versus 38:45.120 --> 38:46.980 anti-capitalism debate or pro 38:47.980 --> 38:51.240 anarchism versus pro-democracy, pro-nation state kind of 38:51.279 --> 38:52.450 debate. And 38:53.480 --> 38:56.799 I feel like those debates have been done to death (laughs) and I'm not sure we'll 38:56.820 --> 38:59.180 have any new points to contribute. 38:59.200 --> 39:03.080 But maybe I will start by saying I, I think, yeah, I think w- what I am 39:03.120 --> 39:04.660 hearing is, like, you 39:05.460 --> 39:09.240 have essentially, uh, an anarchist leaning. 39:09.400 --> 39:12.340 I, I don't know, like, after synthesizing all your ideas what's 39:12.380 --> 39:16.000 position, but, like, you seem sympathetic to anarchism, 39:16.020 --> 39:19.500 sympathetic to Marxism. Uh, yeah, I 39:19.600 --> 39:22.140 basically, I love democracy. I love capitalism. 39:22.160 --> 39:25.520 I think capitalism is one of the greatest things humanity has 39:25.529 --> 39:29.380 done. Yeah, so I mean, my leaning is, yeah, I basically, I love democracy. 39:29.420 --> 39:32.840 I love capitalism. I think most of the good things in my life 39:32.880 --> 39:35.720 result of democracy or capitalism indirectly. 39:35.740 --> 39:38.759 Like, if these systems were not invented, I would probably have been literally 39:38.800 --> 39:41.980 living under a king. My life, like, at least politically would have been a lot 39:42.020 --> 39:45.440 worse, even if economically I may have had 39:45.480 --> 39:49.160 Yeah, that's just my leaning. And, like, at, at least from the start. 39:49.200 --> 39:53.020 And obviously, we both seem to agree at some 39:53.060 --> 39:53.770 level that 39:54.779 --> 39:57.960 if we do have, you know, an AI that's better than everyone at 39:58.000 --> 40:01.080 going to, at least in some ways, fundamentally change our society. 40:01.140 --> 40:03.720 And we both seem to agree in a bad way. 40:03.800 --> 40:07.660 And my current answer to that is more 40:07.720 --> 40:11.120 like, as of right now, let's just ban AI 40:11.200 --> 40:14.960 specifically but keep, you know, capitalism and democracy still running. 40:15.040 --> 40:18.240 And, you know, in future, if we can invent a better social system, 40:18.300 --> 40:19.880 great, you know, it's really important to do. 40:19.900 --> 40:23.880 But I am not willing to immediately say, you know, "Oh, capitalism bad because 40:23.940 --> 40:27.880 capitalism leads to AI." It is true that capitalism leads to AI but I'm not 40:27.940 --> 40:31.200 willing to say, "Just because AI bad, therefore capitalism bad." Like, I'm not 40:31.220 --> 40:34.660 willing to make that... I'm not willing to go 40:34.700 --> 40:35.540 recognizing that 40:36.560 --> 40:40.340 most of the good things in my life, at least materially, 40:40.360 --> 40:42.880 non-material things also come out from the material things. 40:42.920 --> 40:46.840 I think, like, Marx actually makes a bunch of these 40:47.200 --> 40:51.160 technology gives you excess resources and excess resources do actually 40:51.200 --> 40:53.100 bring, you know, actual human happiness. 40:53.180 --> 40:57.040 And yeah, like, him and, you know, a bunch of other thinkers do see it as, 40:57.080 --> 41:00.960 okay, now AI is the ultimate endpoint of that, 41:01.000 --> 41:03.759 everything, you get, you know, this one machine 41:03.860 --> 41:06.980 resources. But also, you know, Marx specifically doesn't make this point, 41:07.040 --> 41:10.620 but this is the point that people have made 41:10.660 --> 41:14.340 resources, also therefore infinite control for, 41:14.520 --> 41:17.520 controls the AI. I think that's something we do agree on. 41:17.580 --> 41:19.480 Uh, okay, so now that's just our broader lens. 41:19.520 --> 41:23.400 Now, coming very specifically, uh, to some of the points you 41:23.460 --> 41:26.759 made. Uh, yeah, you were saying, yeah, regarding, 41:26.860 --> 41:30.450 uh... Yeah, like, uh, yeah, I think this is basically one of 41:30.560 --> 41:34.160 standard my, one of my standard critics to anarchism. 41:34.220 --> 41:38.080 I think, uh, you were basically saying, okay, like, people initially start, you 41:38.120 --> 41:41.270 know, like, as individuals, as free, or maybe they then form, you know, 41:41.279 --> 41:43.160 relationships, form groups or whatever. 41:43.180 --> 41:46.960 But the idea of the nation state is, like, not been, like, always 41:46.980 --> 41:49.120 there. It's... It hasn't always been true, I think. 41:49.140 --> 41:51.720 And I'm rephrasing you, I could be rephrasing incorrectly. 41:51.759 --> 41:55.690 Like, it hasn't always been true that humans, if you leave them free, 41:55.700 --> 41:58.990 they will form a group of millions of people and form a nation state and, 41:59.000 --> 42:00.520 go pillage the other group's stuff. 42:00.560 --> 42:03.870 Like, that isn't the default is I think something you're saying. 42:03.940 --> 42:06.800 And I am saying, no, that actually is the default. 42:06.860 --> 42:10.220 If you leave a bunch of humans free, like, eventually some of them are going to 42:10.240 --> 42:11.440 form a big group and they are going to try to kill- 42:11.460 --> 42:14.870 No, I'm, I'm not saying that. I'm, I'm not, I'm not not saying that. 42:14.960 --> 42:16.219 Then maybe I'll just say my point and then- 42:16.230 --> 42:16.550 I'm, I'm just not, not saying that. 42:16.550 --> 42:19.680 ... you can reply. Fair enough. When you reply, 42:19.700 --> 42:23.100 But I am claiming, yeah, if you have, like, a bunch of humans, 42:23.120 --> 42:23.880 to do whatever- 42:23.890 --> 42:24.540 Yeah, of course. 42:24.550 --> 42:28.540 ... their default outcome for humans is always, like, a bun- set of 42:28.560 --> 42:32.060 humans will decide, "Oh, right, if we form a group, 42:32.080 --> 42:35.220 If we are more powerful, we can go take the other people's stuff 42:35.240 --> 42:38.340 we'll be at the top of the social hierarchy, they will respect us, 42:38.380 --> 42:41.500 more resources, we will have all the women." I just think 42:41.520 --> 42:45.080 default. You can't not do that. Like, like, at least if I look at 42:45.279 --> 42:48.980 literally all of human history, like, it seems very difficult to prevent 42:49.020 --> 42:52.464 humans from doing that. I'm like, you know, 42:52.484 --> 42:54.534 like, okay, look, given that is the default... 42:54.534 --> 42:58.384 And obviously, then that spirals into an arms race because 42:58.464 --> 43:01.274 there decides, "Oh, we want to, you know, form the violent army and, you know, take 43:01.284 --> 43:04.884 care of everyone else," then the other humans also decide, "All right, 43:04.904 --> 43:07.464 going to form the army and, you know, pillage everyone, then, you know, we also 43:07.484 --> 43:11.444 need to form an army to defend ourselves." And then it becomes that army 43:11.454 --> 43:14.824 thinks, "Oh, right, if we had a bunch of technology, we could, 43:14.864 --> 43:17.874 them in spite of their whatever numbers." And then this side says, "Oh, right, 43:17.904 --> 43:21.304 therefore we also need to race them on technology." And then, yeah, that just 43:21.324 --> 43:22.884 becomes an arms race. So 43:23.724 --> 43:27.164 yeah, I just see this as, like, default and then there is 43:27.244 --> 43:31.164 like... Yeah, then for me, the only question is like, you, look, 43:31.224 --> 43:34.424 sapiens always does this, you know, can we do anything better than this? 43:34.464 --> 43:38.244 And for me, then, you know, having, uh, like a 43:38.284 --> 43:41.904 nation state that's even somewhat democratic is better than, you know, just 43:41.964 --> 43:45.924 one, uh, emperor deciding, "You know, all of you are my subjects, you know, 43:46.084 --> 43:49.544 I decide you go to war, therefore you go to war." Versus, 43:49.604 --> 43:53.424 system would be like the group as a whole decides, okay, like if 43:53.484 --> 43:56.994 actually we are like, like... Yeah, the group as a whole decides that, 43:57.024 --> 43:59.744 whether we want to go to war or not, as opposed to, you know, 43:59.804 --> 44:02.944 top deciding it. Like, I think that's marginally better. 44:02.964 --> 44:06.534 Yeah, and similarly with companies, uh, 44:06.904 --> 44:08.424 yeah, actually, no, the companies 0.03- 44:08.444 --> 44:09.404 You know, um- 44:09.414 --> 44:12.964 Yeah, I think, uh, another point which you made was regarding scale. 44:13.084 --> 44:16.924 I think it is definitely true that technology increases the scale at 44:16.984 --> 44:17.194 which- 44:17.224 --> 44:17.234 Oh. 44:17.234 --> 44:21.084 ... we can... I think you did make a point around, like, 44:21.164 --> 44:21.254 Uh- 44:21.254 --> 44:23.604 ... are violent to small companies, like economically. 44:23.624 --> 44:24.144 Big companies- 44:24.164 --> 44:27.594 Yeah, but in a very specific way. I wasn't just implying that, like, oh, 44:27.644 --> 44:29.924 evil. I think they do something very specific. 44:29.934 --> 44:32.184 And I don't think it's just like economic violence. 44:32.204 --> 44:36.124 I think it's like the, the, the price of losing in 44:36.144 --> 44:40.084 the market is boredom, right? If I open a kirana store and the 44:40.124 --> 44:43.174 guy opposite me, like, opens a kirana store, only one of us gets 44:43.704 --> 44:47.034 customers and stuff. Then, like the, the one who's, like, losing 44:47.064 --> 44:50.884 like, basically has to, like, eat a loss and has to, like, do 44:50.944 --> 44:54.404 nothing all day and, like, feel like a failure. 44:54.444 --> 44:57.264 And not just feel like a failure, actually be the failure. 44:57.424 --> 45:00.584 Someone might say that's he's still choosing to do that, right? 45:00.604 --> 45:03.744 He's, he's still choosing to do that there, but if, if that's the, like, 45:03.864 --> 45:04.944 mode by which people 45:05.884 --> 45:09.644 go about their, like, daily life, you know, stick themselves behind, like, a 45:09.684 --> 45:12.324 counter or behind a desk or behind something and then just 45:13.144 --> 45:16.394 do that, like, all day, like, have, feeling like they have no other choice. 45:16.404 --> 45:20.384 Like, like, it doesn't seem like a form of violence, 45:20.424 --> 45:23.753 that person's entire... If you look at the fact that, you know, 45:23.784 --> 45:26.184 like, not just a... I don't say they have a soul 45:26.244 --> 45:29.244 intangible. But, like, everyone has, like, places they want to visit. 45:29.344 --> 45:32.054 Anybody knows that, like, people are happy when they're, like, traveling, 45:32.084 --> 45:35.044 People know, are happy when they're, like, talking to a lot of people. 45:35.424 --> 45:39.174 Jealousy and rage and... Th- this stuff is all fine. I'm just... 45:39.184 --> 45:43.104 My question, my critique is not, uh, violence, big companies 45:43.144 --> 45:46.164 get to do violence to small companies and it's 0.01. 45:46.424 --> 45:49.114 I, I, I'm just saying that, like, I think a lot of times... 45:49.404 --> 45:51.704 And I'm so sorry if it seems like I've cut you off. 45:51.764 --> 45:55.724 If it is the default that, like, humans gather in big groups and wipe 45:55.764 --> 45:59.154 each other out, why are there so many tribes and 45:59.264 --> 46:03.204 cultures and, and, and groups of people that, like, 46:03.224 --> 46:06.684 you know, between themselves be like, "Okay, well, we don't like that, 46:06.704 --> 46:09.884 of people, but we do really like that group of people." Though all of us 46:09.944 --> 46:11.584 separate, like, we, we like those people, right? 46:11.624 --> 46:14.044 Like, that's a king over there and this is a king over here and this is the people 46:14.224 --> 46:17.764 over here. Um, we don't just go around, like, randomly 46:17.844 --> 46:20.644 conquering people. We just don't do that. 46:20.704 --> 46:24.444 I mean, I mean, there's, there's very little examples of people 46:24.464 --> 46:27.894 know, smashing each other over the head, like, hating each other, like, all the 46:27.944 --> 46:31.894 time, right? Um, I understand that your point is more about like, 46:31.984 --> 46:35.184 on the macro level, that's what happens. That was Marx's point as well. 46:35.204 --> 46:39.024 But I mean, just to be fair, I mean, a lo- a lot of us anarchists have a real 46:39.064 --> 46:42.304 big bone to pick with Marx because, like, for example, by the 46:42.344 --> 46:45.084 way, he literally called, like, 46:46.004 --> 46:49.424 China and India, like, irrelevant to the question of, like, 46:49.484 --> 46:52.864 because they follow what's called the Asiatic mode of production. 46:52.904 --> 46:54.724 Which is like an insane oversight, right? 46:54.744 --> 46:57.364 Which is like, if you were any kind of person who likes 46:57.404 --> 47:00.924 history of, like, um, India or China, you'd be like, "These are very different 47:00.984 --> 47:03.484 countries. These are extremely different countries." 47:03.494 --> 47:03.544 Right. 47:03.564 --> 47:06.944 I'm simply an agrarian. Uh, you know, they came up with all kinds of, like, 47:06.964 --> 47:10.413 political, uh, their own, like, normal political ideas and systems and, 47:10.444 --> 47:12.864 they had, like, histories where they, like, agreed and disagreed and, like, 47:12.924 --> 47:16.084 self-consciously created, like, like structures in and around them. 47:16.184 --> 47:19.024 Uh, and, and saw different things as valuable at 47:19.064 --> 47:21.644 Of course they did. Like, what the hell are you talking about? 47:21.704 --> 47:25.504 Uh, you can't just say that, like, there's the machine mode and there's the, 47:25.524 --> 47:28.824 mode and there's the capitalist mode and the socialist mode 47:28.884 --> 47:32.264 So humans getting in big groups and, and then just smashing each other over the 47:32.284 --> 47:36.264 head is not the default, nor is it stages 47:36.304 --> 47:39.674 of history, right? Where, like, at some point we were like, we were like 47:39.724 --> 47:42.934 monkeys and then we turned... Like, we weren't monkeys, now we've turned into, 47:42.964 --> 47:46.084 like, cool, intelligent people. Now we've turned into something else. 47:46.204 --> 47:48.224 Um, true. I mean, it's just not true. 47:48.244 --> 47:51.824 People are always self-consciously aware of what they want to and don't want to do. 47:51.924 --> 47:55.864 Uh, you know, uh, farming is very different from gardening and peop- 47:55.924 --> 47:58.004 both and, you know, the gardener effect is a very real thing. 47:58.084 --> 47:58.484 People really 47:59.364 --> 48:01.224 like coming up with, uh, very beautiful things. 48:01.264 --> 48:05.044 And it's probably from gardening that, like, you know, farming 48:05.104 --> 48:07.644 happened in the first place. There was slash and burn agriculture. 48:07.684 --> 48:09.044 Agriculture, if you want to call it that. 48:09.064 --> 48:12.714 I mean, people are very careful to, like, not exhaust resources where they were. 48:12.744 --> 48:16.204 That seems a very self-conscious thing, but humans aren't even like, 48:16.304 --> 48:19.204 um, we just get together in big groups and, 48:19.284 --> 48:22.524 Even, even to animals, we're not like that. 48:22.564 --> 48:25.964 We exterminate, like, other humans, um, you know, genocidally 48:26.704 --> 48:28.874 these days and for the past, like, 2,000 years. 48:28.884 --> 48:32.714 And that probably has something to do with the nation state because it's 48:32.764 --> 48:35.984 only nation state that can perform, like, arbitrary violence. 48:36.064 --> 48:38.534 Uh, you know, if, if I kill you and your... If I kill you, it's fine, 48:38.584 --> 48:42.164 I kill your family, it's like, oh, I clearly had a point there because 48:42.204 --> 48:46.108 beyond any reasonable, like-Your point about living like a king 48:46.148 --> 48:50.038 capitalism, yeah, I'm with you, but it's, like, like, a 48:50.088 --> 48:52.888 king ... A king and a slave are very, are, are very similar, right? 48:52.928 --> 48:56.888 In that a slave has duties but no rights and a king has the rights 48:56.968 --> 49:00.318 duties. And, and so in fact, kings and slaves is all really (16:35) very ... 49:00.348 --> 49:03.148 The king is always surrounded by slaves because they really understand each other. 49:03.288 --> 49:05.638 Uh, they really understand what it's like to 49:05.668 --> 49:09.118 Not enforced, but like having basically no say in, like, 49:09.128 --> 49:11.998 you know, the complete alienation of you from your 49:12.028 --> 49:14.938 And the king is always supposed to tolerate that because, you know, he's a, 49:14.948 --> 49:18.278 he's a vast and powerful thing set at the very top of society. 49:18.288 --> 49:20.977 And, you know, the slave is like, "Well, I don't even have a family." Right? 49:21.088 --> 49:23.258 Like, "I can't even make friends." Obviously 49:23.268 --> 49:24.628 like, "Oh, legally I can't have friends. 49:24.688 --> 49:28.548 Legally I'm not even a person." Um, waged labor has a 49:28.588 --> 49:32.428 way of doing this, you know, where it's like the guy bringing you your 49:32.528 --> 49:36.408 is not ... It's not that. The guy who installed your, like, 49:36.468 --> 49:40.058 is not, like, a real person. And the person who, like ... 49:40.058 --> 49:42.868 This is my point, that, like, it just has a way of, like, 49:42.908 --> 49:46.728 from, like, the systems you- you're actually supposed to occupy because 49:46.808 --> 49:49.008 are working for something bigger than yourself. 49:49.068 --> 49:52.798 And historically speaking, waged labor has actually been quite 49:53.048 --> 49:56.808 It has not been the default mode of labor to usually care very much 49:56.868 --> 49:59.728 about what we work on and why we work on it, 50:00.288 --> 50:03.828 Scientists really care about what they do and, and social scientists too. 50:03.868 --> 50:06.048 I, I mean I can agree with your point about 50:06.888 --> 50:09.238 social science, and the answer is because, like, the physical sciences were taking 50:09.308 --> 50:12.748 off and people wanted to be like the Newton of, like, the social sciences where 50:12.758 --> 50:15.688 it's like we run an experiment and we see like how people work. 50:15.788 --> 50:17.328 Um, we get something cool out of it. 50:17.428 --> 50:21.248 Uh, you know, the two big fathers of, uh, sociology, uh, 50:21.288 --> 50:24.888 Durkheim and Marx, um, you know, were also basically just like 50:24.948 --> 50:26.808 saying, "Look, this is the system we're in. 50:26.828 --> 50:30.128 This, this, this, this, this is exactly what's happening." We're hoping 50:30.148 --> 50:33.328 complete description of the system something will change the way a Newton as 50:33.368 --> 50:36.268 descriptive scientist was able to create, like, calculus and all this kind of, 50:36.288 --> 50:39.308 like, really fantastic stuff. In a way like Pythagoras, for example, 50:39.328 --> 50:42.798 know, through geometry able to create, like, a complete description of, like, uh, 50:42.808 --> 50:46.548 complicated human stuff. And these are systems of imagining stuff, right? 50:46.568 --> 50:50.468 These systems sort of pointing out exactly what's going on so that you can 50:50.488 --> 50:54.368 then move into something else. Um, this is my secret point, 50:54.428 --> 50:58.188 in fact. (laughs) The, the, these two things really point towards my 50:58.328 --> 51:02.008 of the biggest form of, like, the biggest system of holding back 51:02.048 --> 51:05.748 often is obviously the mental one, right, where you sort of 51:05.888 --> 51:09.168 stop yourself from imagining some things and only imagine other things or filter 51:09.208 --> 51:12.708 out certain features because you're like, "Those are bad." Uh, humans have a 51:12.728 --> 51:15.068 tendency to, like ... Yeah. Sorry. 51:15.168 --> 51:18.888 Uh, you got something? No. No? It's just people don't (19:23) tendency to 51:18.908 --> 51:22.218 out certain ... Humans have a tendency to filter out stuff 51:22.228 --> 51:24.488 of not think about it. Us anarchists don't. 51:24.528 --> 51:27.428 (laughs) Us, I won't say us, but like, you know, um, anarchist 51:27.548 --> 51:31.537 startups, these kinds of groups that actually have to do stuff, 51:31.768 --> 51:35.358 closely at the difference between what people say and what people actually do, 51:35.428 --> 51:37.438 so that you can, like, intervene in, like, what they do. 51:37.448 --> 51:41.328 And they sort of try to create, like, successful interventions. 51:41.428 --> 51:45.348 Um, I would like to give the example of 51:45.368 --> 51:49.308 uh, you know, Orwellian, you know, the worst. 51:49.388 --> 51:52.728 And it's written by someone ... And people either talk about this 51:52.738 --> 51:56.548 completely. Either people completely overlook this 51:56.608 --> 51:58.988 it's really only because of this." Uh, but it was written by someone who was a 51:59.028 --> 52:00.848 propagandist for the British Raj. 52:00.908 --> 52:03.808 Like, he made his chops as well, like a writ- a writer in Bengal. 52:03.828 --> 52:06.048 And he did quite a lot with the British Raj. 52:06.108 --> 52:09.268 So this sort of right wing propaganda for like Indian and British people, right? 52:09.908 --> 52:12.568 Then he sort of lived an extremely active political life and basically came to the 52:12.588 --> 52:16.178 conclusion that like socialists and, and capitalists are basically the same. 52:16.508 --> 52:18.088 Which is an insane thing to say, you know? 52:18.188 --> 52:21.128 Um, from the biggest anarchist to the worst 52:21.488 --> 52:24.228 they're all basically just like coming up with ways to like kill each other, right, 52:24.248 --> 52:28.108 and then- and not talk about it. If you've read 1984, you know, 52:28.708 --> 52:32.648 Engsoc, you know, English socialism, uh, it basically just says that like, 52:33.028 --> 52:36.918 you know, in a society with this much level of like 52:37.028 --> 52:40.928 like really, really shitty basic social control where 52:40.988 --> 52:43.418 always being watched and some machine is always ... 52:43.428 --> 52:46.968 Some, some government official is always understanding who you are. 52:47.008 --> 52:50.588 The truth is, like, that turns people into the kind of people 52:50.628 --> 52:53.648 fundamentally distrust other people. Right? 52:53.748 --> 52:57.488 Um, it's, it's a very precise misunderstanding of 52:57.568 --> 53:01.128 anarchism and socialism and all of these like vaguely humanist 53:01.227 --> 53:05.068 movements that are like, "Look, machines would be good if they 53:05.208 --> 53:08.388 just like took away our work and gave us more time for 53:08.448 --> 53:12.228 fun." But it seems as if they're just like 53:12.268 --> 53:15.928 taking up all of our time, turning us into, like, more machine-like 53:16.028 --> 53:18.348 slaves. I mean, this just seems to be happening. 53:18.408 --> 53:22.388 And there's no fun left. All the, the, the context of fun now 53:22.428 --> 53:25.288 becomes like can you play football? 53:25.308 --> 53:28.868 Can you watch TV on the football as opposed to like, you know, 53:28.928 --> 53:31.608 a game or something interesting to do with your time or something that you want 53:31.668 --> 53:32.618 other people to do with their time. 53:32.648 --> 53:36.388 And it's like that has to be done so that people can, like, have a lot of fun, 53:36.428 --> 53:39.348 that's like evil socialism, right? (laughs) That's not even socialism. 53:39.488 --> 53:43.348 That's like the capitalist mode of production that it's like, um, you 53:43.368 --> 53:46.388 know, you have to be able to sort of record 53:46.468 --> 53:50.458 big live audience see them or like bet on them 53:50.488 --> 53:53.538 know, profit-making, surplus value generating activity. 53:53.538 --> 53:55.608 You know, you can't just enjoy yourself. 53:55.618 --> 53:58.788 And cultures that aren't 53:59.248 --> 54:02.368 capitalist in this way tend to actually just be sort of centered 54:02.408 --> 54:06.068 around, um, enjoying themselves and sustaining 54:06.108 --> 54:09.928 themselves and self-consciously, right, like live good, happy lives, you 54:09.988 --> 54:13.018 know. You know, there was a lot of philosophy anyway that's all 54:13.068 --> 54:14.258 thing. And 54:15.108 --> 54:18.608 dystopian fiction, it creates this like very 54:18.688 --> 54:22.448 real system of sort of holding back where you're like future with 54:22.468 --> 54:24.348 these people in charge would be bad. 54:24.368 --> 54:27.208 You know, future with where everything is governed socially. 54:27.218 --> 54:30.688 So if, if, if, if people don't like you, then you, then you'll be 54:30.748 --> 54:33.358 ostracized and so you'll end up like not liking people. 54:33.468 --> 54:34.498 Uh, and, and that'll be the 54:35.368 --> 54:39.088 political theme. That's just not how like the real 54:39.168 --> 54:42.168 world works. That's not how interventions work. 54:42.228 --> 54:45.388 I mean, you live in all these systems where you're 54:45.448 --> 54:49.072 and-It's machines and machine learning that can, like, 54:49.132 --> 54:51.852 optimize you for, like, saying that, "Hey, you can have a little bit of freedom 54:51.892 --> 54:55.122 there if you do that." I- I hope I'm being coherent about this 54:55.192 --> 54:58.872 I- I feel like I get very vague (laughs) um, 54:59.132 --> 54:59.932 basically there being 55:00.732 --> 55:04.172 no possibility of imagining a future- future better than ours, 55:04.292 --> 55:08.032 um, at the moment. And I- I- I would sort of lay the blame 55:08.052 --> 55:11.872 solely on the capitalists, um, if, you know, like, 50 years ago. 55:11.882 --> 55:15.272 (laughs) Today, I- I'd lay that blame on just, like, 55:15.292 --> 55:19.262 kind of people who are like, "Um, computers are the- are the future and- and 55:19.272 --> 55:20.892 they're the best." Because 55:21.732 --> 55:25.532 a fancy server rack does not make a, an intelligent 55:25.592 --> 55:28.532 society and being able to maintain and continue one does not make an 55:28.572 --> 55:32.412 society, and being able to dam a river and provide electricity in houses does 55:32.472 --> 55:35.752 not automatically make that society better, right? 55:35.852 --> 55:39.092 What you need is, like, actually competent interventions. 55:39.101 --> 55:43.032 "Hey, can we get, like, this set of medicines, you know, 55:43.052 --> 55:46.852 medicines to these people so they can live, like, somewhat long lives?" Um, 55:47.472 --> 55:51.162 there's at least broadly where the state is supposed to provide healthcare, uh, 55:51.251 --> 55:55.232 protection. And in the guise of that, the rest of 55:55.272 --> 55:59.082 the package is weird. The rest of the package is like, like 55:59.112 --> 56:02.042 those are the three things humans really care about, you know. 56:02.092 --> 56:04.962 Like, humans care about educating their children 56:05.032 --> 56:08.792 Humans care about, you know, taking care of each other's health and 56:09.532 --> 56:12.392 humans really care about protecting other humans, I think. 56:12.472 --> 56:14.992 These are the three places that when you'll notice that, like, you know, 56:15.012 --> 56:18.332 these machine learning people are, like, really trying to, like, uh, say, "Let- 56:18.352 --> 56:21.532 let's optimize this. Let's really optimize these three things." 56:21.752 --> 56:25.352 three things we'll be able to optimize perfectly." Uh, education, you know, 56:25.992 --> 56:27.732 will basically get rid of teachers. 56:27.772 --> 56:30.812 Biotech will basically start inventing all the drugs (inaudible) 56:30.992 --> 56:33.942 fantastic. And, like, 56:33.972 --> 56:37.612 protection/employment, right, where it's like, we'll perfectly allocate 56:37.632 --> 56:40.312 everybody so that there's no crime, you know, 56:40.332 --> 56:43.232 to do. Um, you know, if anybody steps out of line, 56:43.292 --> 56:47.052 shock them or, like, joke them off later (laughs) as the way. 56:47.172 --> 56:51.072 Um, yeah, so I think that sort of being the future that 56:51.132 --> 56:52.792 these, like, uncaring 56:53.852 --> 56:55.972 information-type people 56:57.092 --> 57:00.492 can only think of. Because this is what information science reduces you 57:00.512 --> 57:04.172 to. Systems engineering and this kind of stuff actually takes into 57:04.182 --> 57:08.102 account, like, you know, what people want to be and where- 57:08.172 --> 57:11.222 find and what they see maybe as some greater value. 57:11.272 --> 57:14.992 It's inherently non-capitalist because it sees humans and human 57:15.072 --> 57:18.992 flourishing and animal flourishing and other beings flourishing and, 57:19.032 --> 57:22.332 being able to self-consciously take decisions about yourself, especially 57:22.372 --> 57:26.322 realize that, like, holy shit, like, this whole damn thing is 57:26.352 --> 57:29.552 rotten. And those in- those decisions are basically impossible under 57:30.132 --> 57:34.092 representative democratic systems where, like, aristocrats and heroes, um, will 57:34.132 --> 57:37.702 tell you that, like, "Look, this makes money," or, "Look, 57:37.832 --> 57:39.832 Plebiscite systems are actually really undemocratic. 57:39.852 --> 57:41.162 We've known this since the time of Thucydides. 57:41.172 --> 57:44.892 The Peloponnesian War basically ended up as a completely democratic conflict. 57:44.912 --> 57:48.132 And it was pretty obvious that, like, nobody actually wanted it to happen 57:48.172 --> 57:50.552 all these terrible things kept happening, you know. 57:50.572 --> 57:53.972 Anybody seriously, like, who was like, "Okay, well, let's introduce these five, 57:54.032 --> 57:56.912 interventions. We'll- we'll do great." Great. 57:57.012 --> 58:00.222 Um, that's not my point. The- the biggest one 58:00.312 --> 58:03.872 is mentally holding back and machine 58:03.912 --> 58:07.182 learning, polling, you know, um, 58:07.212 --> 58:09.992 capitalism, sure. I'm not (inaudible) . 58:10.012 --> 58:12.412 These are the kind of things that sort of primarily try to hold you 58:12.492 --> 58:15.952 language, aren't simulating what other people want 58:16.072 --> 58:20.002 This expression of, like, what you actually want is, 58:20.012 --> 58:22.582 to actually getting it, you know. Is wanting stuff... 58:22.612 --> 58:26.212 isn't wanting to be desirable, if- if you get my point. 58:26.232 --> 58:29.642 What you want is the actual stuff you want and 58:30.112 --> 58:33.892 meaning is important. Being able to ascribe your own meaning to 58:33.932 --> 58:37.252 opposed to being, like, this man-in-box with engine, man-in-box 58:37.952 --> 58:41.912 shared by other people is... seems like a pretty important 58:41.952 --> 58:43.952 you know. Not- not not getting to that. 58:44.092 --> 58:47.552 So, um, I think you broadly made two major 58:47.632 --> 58:51.552 points, maybe three. Uh, so I feel like the first major point 58:51.612 --> 58:54.112 made, uh, was, yeah, around 58:54.912 --> 58:57.732 anarchism, uh, according to you. You... 58:57.792 --> 59:01.012 if you have, like, a huge number of, you know, people doing whatever they want, 59:01.052 --> 59:04.262 like, by... for you, it is not the default that, oh, like, 59:04.312 --> 59:06.981 bright idea of, "Oh, let's just form a group 59:06.992 --> 59:09.942 Like, you s- you are saying, like, that does not always happen by default. 59:10.012 --> 59:13.272 I'm saying that does always happen by default and you gave some reasons for 59:13.312 --> 59:15.182 I think that was your first major point. 59:15.292 --> 59:18.892 Uh, I think your second major point was 59:18.992 --> 59:22.592 around, uh, capitalism and optimization and then you also 59:22.632 --> 59:26.452 connected to that how ML enables more efficient optimization, uh, which 59:26.532 --> 59:26.892 is 59:27.712 --> 59:31.252 essentially in a capitalist society, you are forced to 59:31.332 --> 59:34.682 optimize for certain things, then you become an optimizer. It's... 59:34.692 --> 59:37.582 then it no longer just becomes, like, oh, at my... 59:37.592 --> 59:40.912 like, at least people who are, like, pro-capitalism would say, you know, like, 59:40.952 --> 59:44.652 your day job, you know, you have to optimize for XYZ things 59:44.692 --> 59:48.592 the work, uh, you may be alienated from it, 59:48.632 --> 59:52.132 free time and free resources which you're free to do whatever. 59:52.152 --> 59:55.522 But I think that would be the optimistic way of, you know, defending capitalism and 59:55.712 --> 59:58.792 I'm sympathetic to that. But I think the point you are making, 59:59.352 --> 01:00:03.272 okay, even if you do got- you- you do get a bunch of, you know, 01:00:03.292 --> 01:00:06.392 free resources at the end of your day job because, you know, your mind has been 01:00:06.432 --> 01:00:09.352 trained to only optimize for those things, you know, you don't really 01:00:10.132 --> 01:00:13.312 have the ability to do fun things, to build 01:00:13.392 --> 01:00:17.232 relationships, to build maybe communities with hobby 01:00:17.312 --> 01:00:19.932 know, other sorts of things. I think that's- 01:00:20.032 --> 01:00:20.872 Yeah, well- 01:00:21.072 --> 01:00:21.102 ... how I- 01:00:21.102 --> 01:00:24.642 ... not that... not that simple. Not that simple because, like, you know, 01:00:24.672 --> 01:00:27.212 to spend a lot of time with your communities in order to build them. 01:00:27.252 --> 01:00:30.072 You have to do it very self-consciously and if, like, eight hours a day of your 01:00:30.112 --> 01:00:32.652 consciousness is that, then you won't be able to spend 01:00:32.732 --> 01:00:35.092 even... you know, eight hours a day, you could be doing something you don't 01:00:35.152 --> 01:00:38.212 with and then have to, like, go in and be, like, "Actually, guys, you know, 01:00:38.272 --> 01:00:42.192 Buddhists say they all renounce all worldly work," and then back to 01:00:42.232 --> 01:00:43.962 worldly work in the (laughs) in the morning, so... 01:00:44.032 --> 01:00:47.872 Uh, so I am actually sympathetic to that point, which is that, okay, 01:00:47.892 --> 01:00:51.612 eight hours of your day at a job you don't really have your heart in, that 01:00:51.692 --> 01:00:54.852 is going to affect even the remaining time you have free, the remaining resources. 01:00:54.892 --> 01:00:58.752 Even if you have a bun- you did your job, you got a bunch of money, you have a 01:00:58.792 --> 01:01:01.852 bunch of free time, you still may not be able to use them in 01:01:01.872 --> 01:01:03.002 Like, I actually agree with you on this point- 01:01:03.002 --> 01:01:05.910 And that most people are working jobs they don't want.... 01:01:05.910 --> 01:01:07.359 most people who work jobs they don't want- 01:01:07.370 --> 01:01:07.370 Yeah. 01:01:07.370 --> 01:01:09.680 ... like, more than the people who aren't. 01:01:09.700 --> 01:01:11.830 Yeah. I also agree with you on that (laughs) . Yeah. 01:01:11.919 --> 01:01:14.850 I think I agree with you on that, so I think that's a second point you made. 01:01:14.959 --> 01:01:18.700 And I think your third point, no, and this thing you also connected to, 01:01:18.740 --> 01:01:22.680 okay, because this level of optimizing every 01:01:22.720 --> 01:01:26.319 bad, and because, you know, machine learning is being used for 01:01:26.379 --> 01:01:29.669 aspect of your life, including relationships, 01:01:29.669 --> 01:01:33.390 healthcare. Like, because you see these things as some way 01:01:33.399 --> 01:01:36.779 to be optimized, like opti- ... And therefore you say, "Yeah, 01:01:36.839 --> 01:01:40.060 learning is bad." I think this was broadly still in your second point. 01:01:40.080 --> 01:01:41.279 I think your third point was 01:01:42.120 --> 01:01:45.919 around, uh, imagination for the future, and how, like, people who 01:01:45.939 --> 01:01:49.759 write dystopian fiction are limiting our imagination for 01:01:49.799 --> 01:01:52.180 actually what is even possible in the future. 01:01:52.240 --> 01:01:52.580 I think that- 01:01:52.620 --> 01:01:55.740 Not on purpose. Again, I don't wanna prescribe an intentionality. 01:01:55.808 --> 01:01:58.740 A lot of them do, like, "Oh, hope in the time of, like, 01:01:58.759 --> 01:02:01.220 know, we live in a ... Some, some people feel like we live in a 01:02:01.259 --> 01:02:03.540 That's fine to, like, imagine hope, but that's very good. 01:02:03.580 --> 01:02:06.750 But, like, you know, it's writing, you know, the ... Some- ... 01:02:06.879 --> 01:02:10.859 I find myself wanting to, like, give literary ideas (laughs) instead of, 01:02:10.899 --> 01:02:14.350 historical, anthropological or social or, like, technical ones, you know. 01:02:14.350 --> 01:02:15.799 'Cause they're very poetic. 01:02:15.839 --> 01:02:19.520 Got it. Okay, fine. So I ... Neither of us is specifically blaming the 01:02:19.560 --> 01:02:23.060 dystopian fiction writers for doing this, but the result is, 01:02:23.160 --> 01:02:26.299 uh, society as a whole, when they read dystopian fiction, 01:02:26.379 --> 01:02:30.319 they are programmed to accept, okay, like, you know, life sucks 01:02:30.379 --> 01:02:33.580 right now in certain ways and it is going to continue to suffer, 01:02:33.640 --> 01:02:35.470 because, you know, this is what all these people are forecasting. 01:02:35.480 --> 01:02:38.339 We are not able to imagine better. So I think that was your third point. 01:02:38.439 --> 01:02:42.209 Uh, okay, so I think I, at least at a high level, 01:02:42.359 --> 01:02:43.700 points. Maybe there were a lot of details- 01:02:43.720 --> 01:02:43.910 (laughs) 01:02:43.910 --> 01:02:46.220 ... maybe I may not have gotten (laughs) , but I think at a high level, I think 01:02:46.259 --> 01:02:48.319 this is what I understood from your points. 01:02:48.379 --> 01:02:51.620 Now, I mean, my counterpoints to these things 01:02:51.680 --> 01:02:55.350 regarding, you know, like anarchism and, you know, big groups and 01:02:55.399 --> 01:02:59.259 violence. Uh, yeah, I think I would want to know, like, 01:02:59.399 --> 01:03:00.779 kind of data point ... I don't know. 01:03:00.799 --> 01:03:03.549 I think now this discussion is shifting (laughs) more into a debate, 01:03:03.620 --> 01:03:06.379 of all. I think a thing that's actually happening. 01:03:06.459 --> 01:03:08.899 Uh, is there any data point that would actually change your mind? 01:03:08.939 --> 01:03:12.899 I think you seem to have a view of history which is like, you know, one support it, 01:03:12.919 --> 01:03:16.580 like, individuals by default were free, at least when homo 01:03:16.660 --> 01:03:20.379 sapiens started off. And eventually, some people had these ideas of forming 01:03:20.399 --> 01:03:22.660 and nation states, et cetera, and this was bad. 01:03:22.700 --> 01:03:22.939 And 01:03:24.140 --> 01:03:24.810 I am saying- 01:03:24.810 --> 01:03:24.810 I am- 01:03:24.810 --> 01:03:27.339 ... no, for ... Okay, okay, you disagree with that. 01:03:27.359 --> 01:03:29.160 But I, I think my view is, like- 01:03:29.169 --> 01:03:29.169 Okay. 01:03:29.169 --> 01:03:32.419 ... as long as homo sapiens has walked this 01:03:32.460 --> 01:03:34.600 groups using violence to take away other groups' stuff. 01:03:34.620 --> 01:03:38.399 Like, this has always been true. And I'm like, if I show you, you know, 01:03:38.460 --> 01:03:39.720 points, so that would that change your mind? 01:03:39.740 --> 01:03:43.479 Like, if I show you, in 8000 BC, these were the empires and emperors, 01:03:43.660 --> 01:03:47.540 6000 BC these were the empires, in 4000 BC these were the empires, 01:03:47.600 --> 01:03:50.680 these were the empires. Like, if I show you all that concrete data, 01:03:50.700 --> 01:03:51.879 something that would change your mind? 01:03:51.899 --> 01:03:53.549 Like, because, I mean, this has moved into a debate- 01:03:53.549 --> 01:03:54.310 It, it b- 01:03:54.310 --> 01:03:57.439 ... and now I do want to figure out, okay, if this is a debate now, you know, 01:03:57.460 --> 01:03:59.600 what's the crux? You know, what data would actually change- 01:03:59.620 --> 01:04:01.600 But I think we can, I think with that, I think we can stop there. 01:04:01.620 --> 01:04:03.009 May- maybe we can have this discussion next 01:04:03.040 --> 01:04:05.020 We are, in fact, very interested in doing this. 01:04:05.100 --> 01:04:05.479 Uh- 01:04:05.540 --> 01:04:05.790 Oh, yeah. 01:04:05.790 --> 01:04:05.979 ... do- 01:04:06.020 --> 01:04:06.299 Yes, I- 01:04:06.339 --> 01:04:10.319 Human groups necessarily 10 forwards, like, outward scaling, this 01:04:10.339 --> 01:04:11.819 thing. And, and I don't think that's true. 01:04:11.839 --> 01:04:11.850 Yeah. 01:04:11.850 --> 01:04:13.279 I think human groups- 01:04:13.319 --> 01:04:13.479 Okay. 01:04:13.520 --> 01:04:13.799 We can be- 01:04:13.839 --> 01:04:14.919 So this was, I think, my first point. 01:04:14.939 --> 01:04:18.509 So if, if I provided you data like this, would that actually change your mind is 01:04:18.520 --> 01:04:21.140 the question? Because if you say yes, then I will actually sit 01:04:21.149 --> 01:04:22.399 and we have to do a bunch of research. 01:04:22.410 --> 01:04:22.410 (laughs) 01:04:22.419 --> 01:04:22.488 But 01:04:23.680 --> 01:04:25.600 yeah, so that's, like, point number one regard- 01:04:25.620 --> 01:04:28.899 I have a lot of counterpoint. I have a lot of counter data points 01:04:28.919 --> 01:04:31.799 like, why that is so ... I'd be happy to have it, but I just think- 01:04:31.819 --> 01:04:35.759 Yeah, yeah. Then your point number two on capitalism 01:04:35.819 --> 01:04:38.290 us to become optimizers and even up- ... se- ... 01:04:38.299 --> 01:04:41.600 to the point where we optimize lots of aspects of our life that maybe are better 01:04:41.620 --> 01:04:45.269 left not optimized. Uh, okay, you seem to (laughs) 01:04:45.279 --> 01:04:46.479 disagree with that framing. 01:04:46.488 --> 01:04:47.950 'Cause I'm not arguing for, like, opt- ... 01:04:47.979 --> 01:04:50.759 like, not optimizing certain stuff. 01:04:50.819 --> 01:04:54.339 I'm just saying that, like, it's not actually getting optimized. 01:04:54.359 --> 01:04:57.640 Like it, it ... You know, we're not actually optimizing for stuff we 01:04:57.720 --> 01:04:58.930 optimize for, right? Like- 01:04:59.000 --> 01:05:00.600 Oh, we are optimizing for the wrong thing. 01:05:00.700 --> 01:05:03.759 I'm, like, really obviously optimizing for the wrong 01:05:03.779 --> 01:05:05.259 Like, nobody wants to 01:05:06.660 --> 01:05:08.600 ... not even, like, do certain jobs. 01:05:08.640 --> 01:05:12.120 Nobody wants certain things to be real. 01:05:12.180 --> 01:05:15.328 You know what I ... Like, that's what I'm trying to say, 01:05:15.379 --> 01:05:18.180 And yet, those things are becoming realer and realer every day. 01:05:18.220 --> 01:05:20.589 Case in point, super intelligent machines 01:05:20.640 --> 01:05:24.609 I mean, those are only profitable if, like, you know, 01:05:24.660 --> 01:05:28.359 you're some, like, millionaire, like, uh, with, with, like, with like some big 01:05:28.379 --> 01:05:30.609 house. Uh, not just millionaires, right? If you ... 01:05:30.640 --> 01:05:33.460 if you're the kind of person who comes home after work into, like, your apartment 01:05:33.500 --> 01:05:36.680 and someone ... some guy on the internet is selling you, 01:05:36.720 --> 01:05:40.580 like, you know, you'll have a intelligent thing in your 01:05:40.600 --> 01:05:42.370 the lights off when you feel like it," and it's ... 01:05:42.370 --> 01:05:44.919 You'll be like, "How much are you gonna charge me for it, you know? 01:05:44.939 --> 01:05:48.740 Because, like, you know, I can just turn it off myself." 01:05:48.819 --> 01:05:50.609 made a lot of decisions in that process, right? 01:05:50.839 --> 01:05:52.189 You, you already agree to live in a house. 01:05:52.220 --> 01:05:56.029 You've already agreed to, like, you know, have, like, smart lights controlled by 01:05:56.080 --> 01:05:59.960 certain systems. And you've already made a lot of decisions 01:05:59.979 --> 01:06:03.720 not have otherwise if you had the free choice of, 01:06:03.759 --> 01:06:07.500 cabin in the woods and only talk to my friends," or, 01:06:07.520 --> 01:06:10.220 with, like, no internet connection at all and, 01:06:10.240 --> 01:06:13.680 certain things," and, you know. That's kind of my point, that, like, 01:06:13.799 --> 01:06:17.600 f- ... free structures are very different from, like, 01:06:17.680 --> 01:06:21.310 free labor. I don't want people, like, working for me. I'm happy to, like ... 01:06:21.419 --> 01:06:24.939 like, reciprocal labor and, you know, hustle with people and, 01:06:24.979 --> 01:06:28.640 I think a lot of people are. And if there was some, like, 01:06:28.660 --> 01:06:32.379 felt like everybody, elders and youngers were, 01:06:32.399 --> 01:06:36.120 But currently, you know, it's very easy to, like, 01:06:36.200 --> 01:06:39.600 like, the individualized, atomized person. 01:06:39.640 --> 01:06:41.890 It's very difficult to do that for a family, right? 01:06:41.890 --> 01:06:44.960 It's basically impossible because, like, a dad doesn't want, like, his kid watching 01:06:44.979 --> 01:06:47.810 pornography all day, but the kid wants to optimize for watching 01:06:47.879 --> 01:06:51.259 video games all day. And the dad wants to optimize for 01:06:51.299 --> 01:06:54.819 the mom is ... might be like, "Actually, I want my kid to be, like, a, a free 01:06:54.859 --> 01:06:57.939 thinker." And then, you know, what should the machine do? 01:06:57.979 --> 01:07:01.819 Obviously not. Decisions humans make. These are important decisions humans make. 01:07:01.839 --> 01:07:03.330 You know? It's, it's, it's really 01:07:04.160 --> 01:07:07.020 ... Just, just involving machine learning in 01:07:07.279 --> 01:07:10.520 sense of, like, where the future is going, some imagined, like, good stuff. 01:07:10.540 --> 01:07:14.228 And-... the suburban lifestyle where, like, people, like, go to, and 01:07:14.328 --> 01:07:16.648 like, you know, box from box to box. 01:07:16.688 --> 01:07:19.748 It's just, it's not going to be useful for 01:07:19.788 --> 01:07:21.528 more real agency or power in that, right? 01:07:22.428 --> 01:07:25.368 That's what I mean when I say that capitalism forces us to optimize for 01:07:25.408 --> 01:07:29.308 don't want to optimize for. Not that, like, you know, you 01:07:29.328 --> 01:07:31.558 shouldn't buy, like, cosmetics because, like, that makes... 01:07:31.568 --> 01:07:35.328 You know, because you're beautiful as you are. 01:07:35.348 --> 01:07:37.348 My point is the first one, not the latter. 01:07:37.388 --> 01:07:40.828 Yeah, uh, yeah, I think I've still not understood this 01:07:40.868 --> 01:07:43.728 I think you've given a bunch of concrete examples, and, like, examples are useful, 01:07:43.748 --> 01:07:47.428 but I tend to be, like, here are my, you know, crisp elegant world models 01:07:47.448 --> 01:07:50.548 of explain everything. And, like, from your examples, I'm not able to, like, 01:07:50.568 --> 01:07:52.868 into my framework of how I view reality. 01:07:52.908 --> 01:07:55.508 Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's just because, like, one is, like, uh, uh, a more 01:07:55.548 --> 01:07:59.328 complicated understanding example, and the other is, like, this is 01:07:59.408 --> 01:08:01.628 usually what people mean, and I don't mean that. 01:08:01.668 --> 01:08:02.357 Okay, yeah, I think that, yeah, so there's- 01:08:02.357 --> 01:08:03.878 Like, I don't mean that we're optimizing for stuff... 01:08:03.908 --> 01:08:07.388 Again, uh, this might again literally be another 01:08:07.428 --> 01:08:10.998 but I think it's possible some alternate society you're imagining, like, the... 01:08:11.048 --> 01:08:12.708 I literally don't have that in my head. 01:08:12.728 --> 01:08:14.808 Like, I literally have no idea what you're 01:08:14.828 --> 01:08:16.006 (laughs) That's even possible. 01:08:16.028 --> 01:08:16.886 (laughs) 01:08:16.948 --> 01:08:18.808 But, uh, that's fine because, I mean, 01:08:19.728 --> 01:08:22.828 my general answer to a lot of these types of questions 01:08:23.188 --> 01:08:26.548 is, yeah, like, or like, you know, why is social media 01:08:26.587 --> 01:08:30.328 optimized to be so addictive? I think your example about porn goes into 01:08:30.368 --> 01:08:34.028 general, like, that ties into a general point about, 01:08:34.048 --> 01:08:37.707 an arms race where, you know, every person is, like, 01:08:37.808 --> 01:08:41.587 Uh, your point about education also comes 01:08:41.598 --> 01:08:45.587 Yeah, like, unless, like, maybe parents decide, "Oh, you 01:08:45.728 --> 01:08:48.707 know, we want to put our kid in this specific 01:08:48.747 --> 01:08:52.247 like, by default, it is a competitive thing of, 01:08:52.288 --> 01:08:55.548 okay, if we put our kid in this school, you know, therefore he'll have a good job, 01:08:55.568 --> 01:08:57.528 he'll make more money. That becomes an arms race. 01:08:57.548 --> 01:09:01.388 By default, a nation state decides, you know, 01:09:01.428 --> 01:09:05.238 decide, you know, if we put XYZ things in our education 01:09:05.268 --> 01:09:08.608 have citizens who are, you know, obedient to us and make money for us, and 01:09:09.188 --> 01:09:12.468 not... And, like, that's the really priority, 01:09:12.508 --> 01:09:16.448 optimized from that thing. And we are, I think you and I are in agreement 01:09:16.508 --> 01:09:20.428 that, you know, a lot of these systems optimize for narrow 01:09:20.448 --> 01:09:22.157 you know, full set of what humans care about. 01:09:22.167 --> 01:09:24.707 You know, other things humans care about get left on 01:09:24.747 --> 01:09:28.667 We are in agreement on this. Uh, like, I agree with 01:09:28.728 --> 01:09:32.688 you, there are a lot of, you know, harms that come about as a 01:09:32.728 --> 01:09:36.707 result of being in this sort of capitalistic, arms race, competitive sort 01:09:36.747 --> 01:09:39.398 of society. But yeah, my answer to all of that is 01:09:40.348 --> 01:09:44.108 nobody else has any alternative. And again, 01:09:44.148 --> 01:09:47.388 Maybe someone else has some alternative that they're actually happy about. 01:09:47.528 --> 01:09:50.688 We... There are a lot of alternatives. You can just read history. 01:09:50.728 --> 01:09:52.698 There's a lot of alternatives, people. 01:09:52.948 --> 01:09:54.988 Yeah, yeah, so I think my actual disagreement with 01:09:55.008 --> 01:09:55.708 There are better alternatives out there, it wasn't- 01:09:55.828 --> 01:09:59.438 So I think my actual disagreement with you here is not, like, you know, do these 01:09:59.448 --> 01:10:01.178 downsides exist or not? How big are they? 01:10:01.208 --> 01:10:03.428 Like, I actually agree there are a lot of downsides that 01:10:03.488 --> 01:10:06.928 I'm just like, the other defaults are literally 01:10:06.968 --> 01:10:10.268 dictatorships, there are fas- fascist governments, they're totalitarian 01:10:10.288 --> 01:10:14.228 governments. These are the only alternate societies we have 01:10:14.248 --> 01:10:18.008 envision. And I think, like, that is where my actual disagreement with you 01:10:18.048 --> 01:10:21.668 this kind of line of thinking is. Regarding your third 01:10:21.788 --> 01:10:25.518 point, uh, on dystopian fiction restricting our 01:10:25.568 --> 01:10:29.558 imagination for the future, I think, I think I strongly agree- 01:10:29.558 --> 01:10:32.648 agree with you on that. Like, I think more people should be writing 01:10:32.708 --> 01:10:36.408 science fiction, a technologically advanced future that 01:10:36.468 --> 01:10:39.088 and people are happy with. Like, I think more people should be writing 01:10:39.148 --> 01:10:42.468 And I think that's hard to write for a bunch of such reasons. 01:10:42.528 --> 01:10:45.478 I mean, one reason is we literally don't... 01:10:45.488 --> 01:10:46.798 Well, there are a few reasons that's hard. 01:10:46.828 --> 01:10:50.628 So the first reason that's hard is if that 01:10:50.968 --> 01:10:53.908 future you are writing about includes a superintelligence. 01:10:53.928 --> 01:10:57.728 So superintelligence by definition almost can do things that you cannot imagine. 01:10:57.788 --> 01:11:00.738 Not just it can do things you can't do, it can do things that are beyond your 01:11:00.788 --> 01:11:02.568 imagination, its imagination is beyond yours. 01:11:02.608 --> 01:11:05.718 So from that point on, I mean, what's that guy's name? Uh, um... 01:11:05.728 --> 01:11:06.317 No, um, he's- 01:11:06.348 --> 01:11:07.948 I'll just finish that in like five minutes. 01:11:07.988 --> 01:11:08.168 Yeah. 01:11:08.178 --> 01:11:11.968 Yeah, uh, I think Ray Kurzweil and somebody else, like they said, 01:11:12.028 --> 01:11:15.688 singularity is by de- by definition almost like from there 01:11:15.708 --> 01:11:18.498 onwards you cannot predict the future because, you know, you're... 01:11:18.508 --> 01:11:21.128 Like, if you could predict the future, you'd be that intelligent yourself. 01:11:21.168 --> 01:11:24.868 That type of thinking. So I think that's the first reason writing 01:11:24.928 --> 01:11:28.828 science fiction is hard. The second reason writing science, 01:11:28.847 --> 01:11:32.287 science fiction is hard because, I mean, a lot of science fiction writers do 01:11:32.808 --> 01:11:36.608 end up realizing that, you know, our current social systems, you 01:11:36.668 --> 01:11:40.148 know, like, our education system, capitalism, democracy- 01:11:40.348 --> 01:11:40.768 Yeah, yeah. 01:11:40.778 --> 01:11:44.618 ... may actually survive in this extremely 01:11:44.688 --> 01:11:48.648 they need to, like, literally invent some new soc- social, 01:11:48.668 --> 01:11:51.948 write that future. Uh, which is again, like, a really hard thing to do. 01:11:51.988 --> 01:11:53.568 Which they should do. I mean, which, which, which- 01:11:53.588 --> 01:11:53.898 Yeah, they- 01:11:53.898 --> 01:11:54.218 ... yeah, they should do. 01:11:54.218 --> 01:11:56.938 They should do and I strongly recommend, like, you know, if, you know, science 01:11:56.968 --> 01:11:59.928 fiction writers have ideas on, you know, what political systems should govern the 01:11:59.968 --> 01:12:02.978 future, like, I strongly recommend that they write about those things. 01:12:03.048 --> 01:12:04.258 I think that's very important to do. 01:12:04.328 --> 01:12:05.268 And I wish that people- 01:12:05.288 --> 01:12:08.368 One example, if I can just plug an example. Um, 01:12:08.388 --> 01:12:11.488 Le Guin does this really well, um, and she's an anarchist writer. 01:12:11.548 --> 01:12:15.388 Anarchists that have to take this very seriously because we often 01:12:15.428 --> 01:12:18.838 proposing alternative versions of the future enabled by technology 01:12:18.868 --> 01:12:21.237 this kind of stuff that we live in harmony with where... 01:12:21.268 --> 01:12:24.878 Because that's, like, our political, whole political idea, you know, like many 01:12:24.968 --> 01:12:28.048 worlds under one. Um, people like Ursula K. 01:12:28.108 --> 01:12:31.968 Le Guin actually do this stuff where you can dream amazing and complicated 01:12:32.048 --> 01:12:33.408 worlds that take their technology- 01:12:33.428 --> 01:12:33.458 Yeah, I have read some of her stuff. Yeah. 01:12:33.458 --> 01:12:34.568 ... and social systems, like, amazing. 01:12:34.588 --> 01:12:38.468 Yeah, yeah, I have read some of Ursula Le Guin's 01:12:38.848 --> 01:12:41.968 a bunch of my disagreements with that are, yeah, as you said, literally my 01:12:42.008 --> 01:12:45.388 disagreements with anar- anarchism, anarchy itself. 01:12:45.428 --> 01:12:49.308 Like, uh, yeah, again, it comes back to our point number one of 01:12:49.348 --> 01:12:53.288 know, do groups or do humans by default always 01:12:53.308 --> 01:12:55.988 Like, I'm like, "Yes." You're like, "No." I think that 01:12:56.028 --> 01:12:59.778 which will come in even there. But yeah, uh, so I, I think 01:12:59.808 --> 01:13:02.178 that would be my reply to I think all your three points. 01:13:02.208 --> 01:13:05.608 So we can maybe now e- either we can end the conversation or 01:13:05.628 --> 01:13:07.508 you can give replies to this. Yeah. 01:13:07.588 --> 01:13:10.058 No, I mean, I think my final opinions... 01:13:10.088 --> 01:13:12.468 Thank you so much for summarizing so, so many of my points. 01:13:12.488 --> 01:13:15.148 I, I feel quite bad that I'm not doing that for you. 01:13:15.158 --> 01:13:18.947 (laughs) I feel as if I maybe...Um, you would take no- more 01:13:18.968 --> 01:13:20.456 space in the conversation than I should. 01:13:21.748 --> 01:13:25.528 But you know, um, sorry. (crosstalk) 01:13:25.548 --> 01:13:29.428 Yeah. Yeah. Um, but no offense, I mean, 01:13:29.508 --> 01:13:32.668 uh, your points aren't very, uh, inspiring, you know what I mean? 01:13:32.688 --> 01:13:36.008 Like I... if it, if, if like, if like, if like the alternative 01:13:36.128 --> 01:13:39.237 to... i- if, like, banning superintelligence is 01:13:40.068 --> 01:13:44.028 so capitalism can continue and people can continue to do like really 01:13:44.088 --> 01:13:47.918 and that kind of stuff. I mean, I think part of the appeal... 01:13:47.947 --> 01:13:50.168 so part of the appeal of the cryptocurrency as well, right? 01:13:50.188 --> 01:13:53.987 Like people who were basically told, you know, basically whatever you do will 01:13:54.048 --> 01:13:56.928 matter because it'll be on chain and it'll be the most important 01:13:56.947 --> 01:13:58.968 thing and memes will be the future. 01:13:59.008 --> 01:13:59.508 And 01:14:00.327 --> 01:14:03.808 it's the same cell that like artificial intelligence 01:14:03.827 --> 01:14:07.388 It's like, oh well, it'll do all the like boring jobs 01:14:07.608 --> 01:14:11.277 and create like perfect supply chains and this kind of stuff. 01:14:11.288 --> 01:14:13.518 And then we'll just be able to feel, to do the things we actually want to do, 01:14:13.548 --> 01:14:16.487 you know, travel around and build really complicated buildings 01:14:16.528 --> 01:14:18.208 nice places and that kind of stuff. 01:14:18.228 --> 01:14:22.197 Which isn't true, that it's just not used for that. I mean, 01:14:22.208 --> 01:14:24.548 there's just no correlation from X to Y. 01:14:24.588 --> 01:14:28.568 There's not a clear path. And it's because the, the, 01:14:28.588 --> 01:14:30.487 this hits the outer layer of like 01:14:31.288 --> 01:14:34.327 capitalist work, you know? Basically here is 01:14:34.407 --> 01:14:38.388 fuel, here is engine, here is output, right? 01:14:38.407 --> 01:14:42.128 And you can basically use the output to like go get more 01:14:42.208 --> 01:14:45.438 fuel and we can just do this forever. Or at least not forever. 01:14:45.468 --> 01:14:49.228 We'll use (2:00) in the, the problems of history when like real 01:14:49.367 --> 01:14:51.998 inventions are actually a lot more complicated than that, right? 01:14:52.028 --> 01:14:54.588 Like if you think about the microwave for example. 01:14:54.648 --> 01:14:57.447 Sure, it takes in electricity and, and it spits out heat, 01:14:57.508 --> 01:15:01.447 but it's very different from butane, butane tanks, 01:15:01.487 --> 01:15:04.428 right? Like the, the technology of like pressurizing tanks 01:15:05.148 --> 01:15:08.148 heat stuff in the future. And it's even more different technology of 01:15:08.228 --> 01:15:11.827 insulation which like keeps houses warm in the future, which we figured out pretty 01:15:11.848 --> 01:15:15.628 early on. And that's even more different than like 01:15:15.728 --> 01:15:19.008 stone refrigerators where people would basically like kill animals and put their 01:15:19.028 --> 01:15:22.048 meat in that stone and then bury the stone because the stone 01:15:22.068 --> 01:15:26.047 cold. Um, when people think technology, they basically only think of 01:15:26.088 --> 01:15:29.487 like, you know, server racks and information 01:15:29.548 --> 01:15:32.447 technology and cars because those are the ones that like 01:15:32.508 --> 01:15:36.128 economically have people doing really shit boring 01:15:36.208 --> 01:15:39.697 jobs. Um, people think that like, yeah, technology 01:15:40.088 --> 01:15:41.528 should be something we all work on, right? 01:15:41.568 --> 01:15:44.028 It's, it's good for us because it's economical. 01:15:44.068 --> 01:15:46.777 And that's a very British minded way of going about it. 01:15:46.888 --> 01:15:48.867 When the British take out with the Industrial Revolution, 01:15:48.947 --> 01:15:52.188 like global custodians of it. You know, technology is an invention that makes our 01:15:52.327 --> 01:15:56.068 lives better. Uh, it's specific interventions 01:15:56.077 --> 01:15:57.657 And this is something that anarchists... 01:15:57.708 --> 01:16:01.548 I think a lot of like people who actually build startups want to like really 01:16:01.788 --> 01:16:05.568 actually do, which is just like stop people's times from 01:16:05.608 --> 01:16:08.788 being wasted and make people live like meaningful lives where like, you know, 01:16:08.808 --> 01:16:10.996 self-consciously create where they... 01:16:11.008 --> 01:16:14.288 where society becomes an act of mutual creation and value 01:16:15.008 --> 01:16:18.807 becomes the most self-conscious part or most conscious part of that creation.