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I can't, I can't live with myself
if I let this

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society sleepwalk into disaster, right?

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I can't live with myself
if I don't do everything in my power

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to ensure there's a world for my children.
The important thing...

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I mean, I go out on the street,
I've talked to, I don't know, hundreds,

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of people. Many of them,
many of them immediately say, "Oh, yes,

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Yeah, they're gonna,
they're gonna end up killing us all." ...

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So for example, in the, in the,
in the Birmingham campaign,

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that I mentioned earlier,
5,000 schoolchildren were arrested

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and spent some time in jail. But it

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changed

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the public perception of an entire
country.

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It got attention at the level of the
national government,

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the introduction of the Civil Rights Act.

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That the

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core founding principle of StopAI is that

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superintelligence is inherently

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too dangerous of a technology ever to be
built.

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This is not, um... this
is in contrast to the position of, for

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example, Pause AI,
which says it should not be built until it

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safely. As, as to why Yudkowsky
is not on hunger

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strike, that's a good question.
People can find many different reasons not

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things.

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Uh, hello, everyone. Uh, my name
is Samuel Shadrack.

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Uh, with me, I have Guido, uh, who

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has been

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protesting against creation of

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superintelligence. He is on hunger strike.

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Uh,
I'm just going to ask him some questions,

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more broadly, you know,
about the issue of, you know,

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Why is this a big deal?
What can we do about it?

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And so on. Uh,

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could you maybe just please start by
introducing yourself, you know, like

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what's your background? How did you,
you know, come to this decision where you

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are right now of, you know,
doing a hunger strike?

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Like, where did this begin,
and how did that turn into where we

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now?

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Yeah. Thank you for having me on.

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Um, yeah, my name is Guido Reichstadter.

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I'm 45 years old. Uh, I'm a father of

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two children.

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And I first really became aware of the

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potential to build artificial general
intelligence,

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uh, back in university when I
was studying math and

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physics.
I was probably around 20 years old.

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And, um,

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you know, immediately

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I felt that this would be

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probably the most dangerous technology
that humanity had ever

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tried to build. And, uh, just at the

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time, the, the people

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around me, the information
that I could get seemed to point

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towards this becoming possible in the
second half of the 21st

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century. Um, and I kind of just put it out

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of my mind really,

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until, uh, ChatGPT was

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released. And

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that kind of served as a wake-up call, uh,
that this

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process was going a lot faster than I
expected it to go.

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Not that I thought ChatGPT itself was

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there, right?
But just what it indicated about the

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underlying trend.

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And

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I remember, um,

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beginning to look for more information.

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I found this, uh... I found out
that people had

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been... people had much shorter timelines,
even back in

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2000. Specifically, uh,

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um, there was a paper that
was written in the late '90s by Hans

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Moravec where he looked at the
exponential, uh,

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trend in increasing computational power

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and used a model of some

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neurons to make an estimate of what

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the, like, in a... by analogy,
what kind...

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what, h-
how much computation the human brain does.

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And said this trend will intersect the
computational power of the human brain

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sometime in the 2020s. And

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that should be a warning sign, right?

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That it's becoming,
it's potentially becoming

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possible now

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to create hardware that can do effectively

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what a human brain does, even
if it's not wired up correctly yet,

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right?

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Never before in, you know,
the history of humanity has it been

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to build a machine that could do anything

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like the computational ability of the
human

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brain, and that's becoming possible now.

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And so, yeah, um, it's... I go- it

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got me worried when I saw Chat GP-
GPT come out, seeing the

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continuing trends, seeing the billions
and billions of dollars in

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capital pouring into the field
and greater and greater numbers of

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researchers being devoted to cracking
that problem.

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Like, I'm 45. Never in my life

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has there been so much

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energy, talent, resources,

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capital, excitement behind building

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this technology. And I feel that

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we are in a condition of imminent danger
right now because we don't

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know where the line is.
We don't know how far we

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have to go to cross

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the barrier

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to something that's as generally capable
as a human

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mind. And we also know
that there's a lot of momentum, a lot of

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inertia in society.... and that if we want

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to have the option to stop this process,
we have to

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do...
we have to change the way the world works,

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and that takes time and effort and energy.

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So it's kind of like the situation where
we're on the Titanic,

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huge ship with a lot of momentum
and inertia,

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and we see an iceberg in front of us,

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and we don't know if we
are able to maneuver the

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ship out of the path of
that iceberg in time.

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And if so, uh, you know, if it's,
if that's not the case,

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right now. It's like,

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if you're in a car

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driving downhill

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and you have no brakes, your brakes
are gone, you're in an

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emergency well before you pass over the
edge of that

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cliff.

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That's the situation which the world
is in right now.

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There is an uncontrolled race to
artificial

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superintelligence,
which we have good reason to suspect would

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have catastrophic or

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extinction-level consequences for the
human race-

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Okay.

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...
and we have no effective mechanism to stop

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currently. So, um,

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in 2024, I put my career on hold. Uh,
I was a jeweler

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in Miami.
I started a business with my ex-wife, uh,

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years working at that, and,

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um, moved to San Francisco

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to try and

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put some brakes on this (laughs) runaway
car,

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right? Um,

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I landed October... I think it was 17th.

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On the 21st,
I was sitting down in front of OpenAI

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having chained their, their door shut,

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right?
I believe we all have a right to stop

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this race that threatens our lives.

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And

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in the absence of government action,
which is...

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has not been forthcoming,
we have a responsibility to stop it now

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precaution, out of the need to prevent

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the risk of devastating consequences to
people we love.

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So, um,

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yeah, I, I don't think there's any...

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Any day is a bad day to take direct action
to stop this

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race. And in fact, we need to see a lot,
lot more of it, and that's,

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that's

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one of the prime motivations for me going
on this hunger strike,

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is

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partly to make a public demand of these
companies to stop

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putting my life and the life of my
children and our

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community in danger,

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to do everything in their power, which
is far greater than

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mine, to work towards an end to the global

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race which is necessary

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for our safety, right?

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Yeah. Um-

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We need a globally binding treaty
which prohibits the development of

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this extremely dangerous technology,

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and to fulfill their duty to

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do everything they can to ensure
that our society

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is made aware of the urgent danger it's
being put

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in by this race and by the companies, like

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Anthropic,
that are participating in it

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their responsibility
while they're doing so.

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It's not enough to

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make nice, safety-sounding

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words, right?

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Mm-hmm.

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You've got... If, if this company is

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going to put the lives of everyone on
Earth

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at risk...

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They have their reasons.
I don't agree with them,

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but regardless,

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they have a responsibility to make sure
that the people whose

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lives they're putting at risk understand
that their lives are being put

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at risk,

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and this is not satisfied by giving a few
speeches or a few

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podcasts here and there, you know?

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It's not satisfied until society
is made aware of this

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urgent threat. So

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finally, if Dario Amodei,
the CEO of Anthropic,

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that,
I'm asking him to meet me face-to-face,

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being, and explain why, and

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I feel that that's not an unreasonable
request.

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I feel that my life has value just as much
as

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his.

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Got it.

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The lives of my children-

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Yeah, got it. Um-

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... they have a right to life.

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Yeah, everything you said
was super useful, but yeah,

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interrupt. I just,
I just want to go to the next question.

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Uh,
because you mentioned specifically

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know, just a disclaimer,
I have never visited, but obviously,

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Twitter, you know, I see the stuff
that gets posted online.

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Uh, in general, like, you know,
if you ask me personally,

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like, for me, it makes sense, like,
you know, political action makes

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sense. Like, I assume, okay, you know,
look, religious leaders have, you know,

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influence over society. You know,
politicians have, you know, influence over

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society. You know,
politics actually matters, and, like,

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social movements actually matter.

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Like, it is not just money that matters.

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Like, it's not just, you know,
billionaires that matter, you know,

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matters. But however, when I look at,
you know, the

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types of, you know, ideas that
are spread in San Francisco, the sense

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I get is that, you know,
if you're building technology,

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like, a tech billionaire, like,
that's the only high-status thing to do.

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Like, if you do that,
you will get respect.

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If you, you know,
become someone like us who's, you know,

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and, you know, start a social movement
and so on, like, you know, people in San

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Francisco don't respect you. And, like,
there's

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very clear, like,
status dynamics going on here,

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even in the minds of people who
are inside that bubble, which,

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that, "Oh, if I, you know,
join these people who are protesting,

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00:12:04,852 --> 00:12:07,972
are going to look at me as lower status,
you know, people who won't respect me," so

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on. So-Yeah, I just wanted to ask you,
like, what

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are your opinions on, you know, how, uh,
like, status, social

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approval, respect, like,
how do these things work in San Francisco?

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(laughs)

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Like, how do they work currently and be,
you know, what can we actually done to,

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you know, change that?

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Yes. I'm primarily concerned with

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respecting myself. I don't really care

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about other people's respect.
I have to live my life in a

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way which I can respect

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my own actions in honoring what I believe
is

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true. And

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I think it's

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these- s- this thing about status
is a pernicious

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00:12:55,244 --> 00:12:57,524
trap, right?

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Um, you know, I- it's- it reminds me of

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00:13:01,664 --> 00:13:04,674
a story, I don't know if it's true or not,

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00:13:04,704 --> 00:13:07,664
but, you know, people- people will

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willingly, um,

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lose their lives rather than lose the
respect of their- their peers,

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00:13:15,984 --> 00:13:16,234
right?

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00:13:16,624 --> 00:13:17,104
Mm-hmm.

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00:13:17,144 --> 00:13:20,314
And in this case,
we might lose the entire world out of some

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00:13:20,364 --> 00:13:21,424
foolish...

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00:13:22,704 --> 00:13:26,604
It's like, I- I- I wonder why people
are so concerned about the respect

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00:13:26,644 --> 00:13:30,514
of others. It makes me wonder.
It seems that

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it-
it's a reflection of a certain self-doubt.

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At any rate, it- it's-
it doesn't stop me from doing what

247
00:13:39,684 --> 00:13:41,524
I'm doing. Um,

248
00:13:43,084 --> 00:13:46,124
and this is, uh, uh, there's an inter-
an interesting point that you brought up.

249
00:13:46,184 --> 00:13:47,544
So people in San Francisco,

250
00:13:48,404 --> 00:13:51,944
it's a-
it's a metropolitan area of almost eight

251
00:13:52,624 --> 00:13:53,534
Mm-hmm.

252
00:13:53,534 --> 00:13:55,284
Um, it's very hard to generalize, right?

253
00:13:55,844 --> 00:13:56,624
Yeah.

254
00:13:56,684 --> 00:13:59,944
So there are many people in San Francisco
who

255
00:14:01,364 --> 00:14:02,684
recognize that

256
00:14:04,284 --> 00:14:08,124
this AI race is a race to annihilation,
and they have no- they

257
00:14:08,144 --> 00:14:11,984
want nothing to do with it, right?
The important thing, I mean,

258
00:14:12,024 --> 00:14:15,644
street, I- I've talked to, I don't know,
hundreds, thousands of

259
00:14:15,684 --> 00:14:19,404
people. Many of them-
many of them immediately say, "Oh yes,

260
00:14:19,424 --> 00:14:22,784
thing. Yeah, they're gonna-
they're gonna end up killing us all." Many

261
00:14:22,824 --> 00:14:24,734
understand this. It's- it's not like, um,

262
00:14:25,704 --> 00:14:28,004
some, uh, esoteric

263
00:14:28,104 --> 00:14:31,864
idea. Um, the important thing

264
00:14:31,984 --> 00:14:33,444
is not to

265
00:14:34,524 --> 00:14:34,784
act

266
00:14:35,884 --> 00:14:39,684
based on the expectations of others
but to do what is right, to do

267
00:14:39,724 --> 00:14:43,644
what's necessary,
and to find other people and

268
00:14:43,664 --> 00:14:46,924
encourage them to do what's right
and necessary.

269
00:14:47,004 --> 00:14:50,724
And that's what, uh, you know, this is-
there's

270
00:14:50,764 --> 00:14:54,694
a- there's a saying that all-
all truth goes through several

271
00:14:54,744 --> 00:14:58,654
stages. First it's ridiculed,
then it's opposed, and finally

272
00:14:58,704 --> 00:15:01,474
it's- it's accepted as self-evident,
right?

273
00:15:01,584 --> 00:15:02,084
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

274
00:15:02,144 --> 00:15:03,684
So there's always going to be this kind of

275
00:15:04,504 --> 00:15:08,214
opposition, but this is not actually about

276
00:15:11,344 --> 00:15:14,984
necessarily even responding.

277
00:15:16,724 --> 00:15:19,124
The primary thing at least
is not responding to the opposition.

278
00:15:19,144 --> 00:15:22,804
The primary thing is doing what
is correct and-

279
00:15:23,044 --> 00:15:23,394
Mm-hmm.

280
00:15:23,394 --> 00:15:26,444
... with the understanding
that we have that this race puts

281
00:15:27,264 --> 00:15:29,384
our lives in danger.

282
00:15:30,584 --> 00:15:34,533
That's enough. E- even certainty is not

283
00:15:34,544 --> 00:15:38,504
necessary. You wouldn't-
I wouldn't let anyone play Russian

284
00:15:38,544 --> 00:15:42,364
children, right? And this
is just a risk of death.

285
00:15:42,384 --> 00:15:45,784
We're talking about risk of destroying the
entire world, right?

286
00:15:45,944 --> 00:15:49,884
We have rights. We have a right to life,
and we

287
00:15:49,904 --> 00:15:53,884
have a right to live unafraid
that someone's gonna

288
00:15:53,924 --> 00:15:57,644
destroy the world. So we need to

289
00:15:57,804 --> 00:16:01,744
stand on those rights
and defend them because we're actually

290
00:16:01,764 --> 00:16:03,364
up for each other, right?

291
00:16:04,704 --> 00:16:07,384
It's not just our rights we're standing up
for.

292
00:16:07,424 --> 00:16:11,384
We can only have these-
we only benefit individually from these

293
00:16:11,404 --> 00:16:14,844
rights if we're willing to defend them
collectively, because

294
00:16:14,884 --> 00:16:18,124
individually we can't-
we can't defend them.

295
00:16:18,144 --> 00:16:22,024
And so this is- this is the thing which,
uh, trying to help, um,

296
00:16:23,324 --> 00:16:24,444
people to do.

297
00:16:24,584 --> 00:16:28,084
Got it. Got it. That makes sense,
and I am completely supportive of your

298
00:16:28,104 --> 00:16:31,624
efforts. Uh,
maybe then the next thing I wanted to

299
00:16:31,764 --> 00:16:35,044
ask is, you know, like,
how do we actually, you know,

300
00:16:35,064 --> 00:16:37,223
How do we build this into a social
movement?

301
00:16:37,324 --> 00:16:37,704
Uh,

302
00:16:38,984 --> 00:16:42,834
so one thing you actually previously
talked to me about, you know, in private,

303
00:16:42,864 --> 00:16:46,604
but I also wondered if they, you know, be,
uh, out there in public, which is you

304
00:16:46,644 --> 00:16:50,504
said, like, in order to get more people,
you know, in the movement, you

305
00:16:50,544 --> 00:16:54,004
know, against AI, you know,
to be actually protesting,

306
00:16:54,064 --> 00:16:57,524
something about it, uh, you said what
is important is

307
00:16:57,684 --> 00:17:01,424
not, "Okay,
here's a list of technical arguments for,

308
00:17:01,484 --> 00:17:03,844
risk," but what is actually needed is,
like, courage.

309
00:17:03,884 --> 00:17:06,964
It's, like, seeing, you know,
your friends and people around you,

310
00:17:07,003 --> 00:17:10,824
actually demonstrating that courage
and actually, you know,

311
00:17:10,924 --> 00:17:14,863
Uh, like,
that intuitively seemed to make a lot of

312
00:17:14,944 --> 00:17:18,904
sense to me. Uh,
I just wanted to sort of get more of your

313
00:17:18,924 --> 00:17:21,604
Like, why do you believe this is true?

314
00:17:21,664 --> 00:17:25,404
Do you have some existing examples of
this, you know, either in the AI or AI

315
00:17:25,424 --> 00:17:28,144
risk space or, you know,
even outside of it?

316
00:17:28,184 --> 00:17:30,084
Yeah.

317
00:17:30,144 --> 00:17:33,524
No, I- I mean I think this
is absolutely essential,

318
00:17:33,624 --> 00:17:36,264
right? I mean, it's not the wh-
it's not the whole thing.

319
00:17:36,304 --> 00:17:36,774
There are many

320
00:17:37,664 --> 00:17:40,624
interlocking pieces, uh, eh, in-
among which

321
00:17:42,024 --> 00:17:45,004
the technical arguments, the awareness

322
00:17:46,304 --> 00:17:48,084
also contribute, right?

323
00:17:48,764 --> 00:17:51,884
But, um,

324
00:17:54,244 --> 00:17:57,964
what in-
in my estimation has heretofore been

325
00:17:58,004 --> 00:18:01,304
lacking has been a willingness to act

326
00:18:02,204 --> 00:18:04,904
consistently with the meaning of an

327
00:18:04,924 --> 00:18:08,384
emergency. Even a- a willingness to

328
00:18:08,424 --> 00:18:12,384
acknowledge that there
is an emergency on the part of people who

329
00:18:12,424 --> 00:18:13,644
traditionally been concerned

330
00:18:14,584 --> 00:18:18,318
and aware of the threat that-...

331
00:18:18,328 --> 00:18:19,048
AI poses

332
00:18:20,288 --> 00:18:23,068
with regards to extinction.

333
00:18:24,267 --> 00:18:24,588
And

334
00:18:27,808 --> 00:18:29,628
there is a lot of, um,

335
00:18:31,227 --> 00:18:33,967
there's kind of a spirit of uncertainty,

336
00:18:34,048 --> 00:18:36,507
fear, doubt,

337
00:18:36,568 --> 00:18:39,628
self-doubt, and all of this is

338
00:18:41,408 --> 00:18:43,467
totally

339
00:18:44,368 --> 00:18:44,707
fatal

340
00:18:45,868 --> 00:18:49,207
to the creation of a vital en- engaged

341
00:18:49,267 --> 00:18:51,588
movement, right?

342
00:18:52,928 --> 00:18:56,747
We potentially have very little time in
which to

343
00:18:56,788 --> 00:19:00,447
accomplish a very large goal, which is

344
00:19:00,548 --> 00:19:03,808
moving the entire world out of the path

345
00:19:03,947 --> 00:19:07,467
of this extremely dangerous technology
it's on course

346
00:19:07,528 --> 00:19:10,578
to, to build. And

347
00:19:13,528 --> 00:19:14,888
I have seen the failure of

348
00:19:16,408 --> 00:19:17,967
reformist projects on

349
00:19:18,967 --> 00:19:22,088
social issues for 40 years,
on climate change, for example,

350
00:19:23,328 --> 00:19:26,467
with the result that now very devastating,
even catastrophic

351
00:19:26,848 --> 00:19:30,717
effects are essentially locked in.

352
00:19:30,768 --> 00:19:34,598
We don't have 40 years to fail on climate
change, uh,

353
00:19:34,648 --> 00:19:38,027
on, on AI.
We don't have 40 years to fail on

354
00:19:38,088 --> 00:19:40,098
AI. And

355
00:19:42,308 --> 00:19:44,447
we need to act

356
00:19:45,908 --> 00:19:49,828
decisively. If a m- if a, if a man

357
00:19:49,868 --> 00:19:53,648
is putting my life in danger
and the lives of my children, I'm not

358
00:19:53,658 --> 00:19:57,007
satisfied merely to ask him to stop

359
00:19:57,928 --> 00:20:01,908
or to ask the government to stop
and wait and wait

360
00:20:03,447 --> 00:20:05,868
and wait for a response
that may not ever come.

361
00:20:05,888 --> 00:20:07,178
Got it. I-

362
00:20:07,178 --> 00:20:09,687
It's our responsibility to take
leadership.

363
00:20:09,697 --> 00:20:12,997
...
thing doesn't look very good right at the

364
00:20:12,997 --> 00:20:16,888
To take direct action.
We have the right to end this threat

365
00:20:16,987 --> 00:20:19,467
today, right now.

366
00:20:20,428 --> 00:20:21,308
This is our right.

367
00:20:22,707 --> 00:20:26,467
And the only way
that it's going to possibly be done is by

368
00:20:26,507 --> 00:20:27,627
beginning to act

369
00:20:28,627 --> 00:20:30,137
with courage, with conviction

370
00:20:31,568 --> 00:20:35,487
on that, on that right,
to take direct non-violent action

371
00:20:36,388 --> 00:20:36,987
to stop

372
00:20:38,727 --> 00:20:42,687
the development towards superintelligence,
to ta- which could, is

373
00:20:42,727 --> 00:20:43,507
as simple as

374
00:20:45,507 --> 00:20:48,668
non-violently occupying the companies
that are doing

375
00:20:48,707 --> 00:20:52,608
it, to lead government,
because government is

376
00:20:52,687 --> 00:20:53,868
not leading on this.

377
00:20:56,447 --> 00:20:59,888
Go,
the responsibility for our safety

378
00:20:59,928 --> 00:21:03,467
government, but they are abdicating
that responsibility.

379
00:21:05,148 --> 00:21:09,027
Where does the responsibility go?
It doesn't vanish. It's on us still.

380
00:21:09,048 --> 00:21:13,027
It always was on us.
We delegated it to government,

381
00:21:13,068 --> 00:21:16,227
job. It's our responsibility to lead

382
00:21:16,368 --> 00:21:20,108
government, to occupy the offices of

383
00:21:20,168 --> 00:21:22,007
Congress if necessary-

384
00:21:23,308 --> 00:21:23,318
We do.

385
00:21:23,318 --> 00:21:24,668
... to compel them to act.

386
00:21:25,648 --> 00:21:28,467
And we can do this. This is,
this has been done by

387
00:21:29,687 --> 00:21:33,447
th-
this has been done by social movements

388
00:21:33,487 --> 00:21:34,628
over again.

389
00:21:35,668 --> 00:21:35,987
And

390
00:21:38,268 --> 00:21:40,808
I'm, I'm inspired particularly by this.

391
00:21:42,348 --> 00:21:46,247
There is a,
an episode in the civil rights movement in

392
00:21:46,288 --> 00:21:49,027
the Birmingham campaign,

393
00:21:50,027 --> 00:21:50,338
where

394
00:21:52,048 --> 00:21:53,368
5,000 school children

395
00:21:54,348 --> 00:21:54,987
went to jail

396
00:21:55,888 --> 00:21:58,638
for defying the segregation laws in
Birmingham,

397
00:21:58,668 --> 00:22:00,568
Alabama.

398
00:22:03,987 --> 00:22:04,027
Yeah.

399
00:22:04,048 --> 00:22:06,888
They filled every jail in Birmingham,
they filled the state

400
00:22:07,707 --> 00:22:10,987
fair, the animal pens where they,
they held animals at the state

401
00:22:11,048 --> 00:22:12,768
fair,

402
00:22:13,808 --> 00:22:15,928
and this happened over several weeks.

403
00:22:15,947 --> 00:22:19,608
And by the end of it,
the chief of police threw his hands in the

404
00:22:19,648 --> 00:22:23,467
said,
"There's no way to keep a lid on this

405
00:22:23,527 --> 00:22:24,207
gone."

406
00:22:25,027 --> 00:22:28,928
This is when radical political change
happens, when people

407
00:22:28,937 --> 00:22:29,768
lose their fear

408
00:22:31,288 --> 00:22:35,128
and they're willing to act. For me,
I'm acting out of love

409
00:22:35,308 --> 00:22:39,148
for my children. If I f- if I have to

410
00:22:39,187 --> 00:22:42,408
face the choice between going on hunger
strike

411
00:22:45,248 --> 00:22:48,348
and raising awareness on this issue
and mobilizing people to

412
00:22:48,358 --> 00:22:52,187
action or sitting back and,
and living a comfortable

413
00:22:52,248 --> 00:22:56,027
life and letting my children's lives be
threatened, I'll take the first

414
00:22:56,088 --> 00:22:59,878
one any day of the week.
I've been arrested a couple of

415
00:22:59,928 --> 00:23:03,128
times. I'm willing to go to jail.

416
00:23:04,207 --> 00:23:08,047
I'm willing, you know,
to do whatever it non-violently takes to

417
00:23:08,088 --> 00:23:11,388
my children are safe,
because in my mind there's nothing more

418
00:23:11,428 --> 00:23:13,328
important.

419
00:23:13,727 --> 00:23:14,068
Yeah.

420
00:23:14,078 --> 00:23:17,808
And when people, when people tap into
that love, the

421
00:23:17,888 --> 00:23:19,368
fear of, of sanction

422
00:23:21,527 --> 00:23:24,568
becomes much less effective in
constraining our

423
00:23:24,608 --> 00:23:26,257
behavior.

424
00:23:26,257 --> 00:23:26,257
Yeah.

425
00:23:26,328 --> 00:23:30,138
I'm sure that many of the people that
are concerned about this, if

426
00:23:30,168 --> 00:23:33,428
the, if they, if they knew that simply by

427
00:23:35,348 --> 00:23:38,947
sitting down in front of the AI companies
they would stop this race, many would

428
00:23:38,987 --> 00:23:41,868
take that. It's the right thing to do.

429
00:23:41,908 --> 00:23:44,568
The only reason they don't
is because they don't think it's going to

430
00:23:44,628 --> 00:23:46,418
work.

431
00:23:48,388 --> 00:23:52,277
And what we need for people to do
is to center less on what they think

432
00:23:52,308 --> 00:23:55,848
to work and more on what
is right for them to

433
00:23:55,908 --> 00:23:56,957
do, because

434
00:23:58,687 --> 00:24:01,868
paradoxically that's why it hasn't

435
00:24:01,928 --> 00:24:05,788
happened.
That's why we haven't stopped this race,

436
00:24:05,848 --> 00:24:09,768
have not en mass led society

437
00:24:09,808 --> 00:24:13,067
and said, "This thing is wrong
and it needs to stop."

438
00:24:13,187 --> 00:24:13,447
Yeah.

439
00:24:14,908 --> 00:24:17,428
Got it, got it. No, that is a good answer.

440
00:24:17,547 --> 00:24:21,328
Uh, I wanted to ask you, uh, so there
are multiple

441
00:24:21,547 --> 00:24:23,027
groups that are trying to do...

442
00:24:23,248 --> 00:24:26,947
... you know,
public advocacy around the idea of

443
00:24:27,008 --> 00:24:30,437
risk from superintelligence. Uh,
this could include starting with, you

444
00:24:30,488 --> 00:24:34,268
know, uh, Mary's latest book, you know,
Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nate Sawyer

445
00:24:34,368 --> 00:24:38,008
is, they published this book, you know,
If Anyone Mutes It, Everyone Dies.

446
00:24:38,088 --> 00:24:41,268
Uh, there is pause AI which
was started by,

447
00:24:41,288 --> 00:24:44,428
uh, Meandetsma and Holly

448
00:24:44,628 --> 00:24:48,508
Elmore. Uh, there's, you know,
the AI Risk Network by John Sherman.

449
00:24:48,568 --> 00:24:52,488
There's, you know,
Liron Shapira who has his own channel

450
00:24:52,548 --> 00:24:55,888
debates. Like, there
are lots of people who

451
00:24:55,928 --> 00:24:59,888
need to go to the public. Uh,
but I get the sense that they're all

452
00:24:59,947 --> 00:25:03,528
working independently. Uh,
so maybe I just wanted to ask you, like,

453
00:25:03,628 --> 00:25:07,466
A, what is something you think like,
you know, all these public advocacy groups

454
00:25:07,528 --> 00:25:10,338
agree on, and B, what is, you know,
something...

455
00:25:10,348 --> 00:25:14,288
or what other things they disagree on?

456
00:25:16,588 --> 00:25:20,508
Yeah. That's a good question.
I'm not terribly familiar with what

457
00:25:20,528 --> 00:25:23,707
e- ev- every other group is doing.
I can speak

458
00:25:23,748 --> 00:25:27,138
primarily, uh, for myself, what I'm doing,
and

459
00:25:27,168 --> 00:25:30,808
the, the, the work
that I've done in support of Stop

460
00:25:30,868 --> 00:25:32,488
AI. Um,

461
00:25:33,748 --> 00:25:37,628
in terms of goals, there is, um...
I think there is a

462
00:25:37,708 --> 00:25:40,028
common- a commonality in that

463
00:25:40,947 --> 00:25:42,488
I believe all of these groups

464
00:25:43,828 --> 00:25:45,528
would agree that

465
00:25:47,228 --> 00:25:50,068
the race which is going on now to build
superintelligence

466
00:25:50,348 --> 00:25:54,187
is...
poses an extreme threat to all of our

467
00:25:55,368 --> 00:25:59,268
safety and wellbeing and our lives,
and should

468
00:26:00,467 --> 00:26:02,728
stop now.

469
00:26:04,888 --> 00:26:07,947
I don't think that's... I don't think
that would be controversial

470
00:26:08,748 --> 00:26:11,048
(laughs) among any of those groups.

471
00:26:11,148 --> 00:26:15,088
Um, the primary difference

472
00:26:15,098 --> 00:26:17,628
that I see, there are

473
00:26:17,748 --> 00:26:21,628
two. One is kind of in

474
00:26:21,687 --> 00:26:22,368
the goals,

475
00:26:23,668 --> 00:26:26,918
the ultimate goals of those groups, and

476
00:26:27,687 --> 00:26:30,788
one is in the methods which they see

477
00:26:30,928 --> 00:26:31,947
as,

478
00:26:32,748 --> 00:26:34,548
uh, necessary or

479
00:26:35,548 --> 00:26:39,528
effective. Um, in terms of goals, I'd say

480
00:26:39,588 --> 00:26:40,868
that there is a clear

481
00:26:41,708 --> 00:26:45,077
distinction between Stop AI
and the other groups which is

482
00:26:45,108 --> 00:26:48,528
that the core

483
00:26:48,588 --> 00:26:51,788
founding principle of Stop AI is that

484
00:26:51,828 --> 00:26:55,467
superintelligence is inherently

485
00:26:55,568 --> 00:26:58,668
too dangerous of a technology ever to be

486
00:26:58,687 --> 00:27:02,608
built. This is not, um... this is in

487
00:27:02,687 --> 00:27:06,648
contrast to the position of, for example,
pause AI which says

488
00:27:07,248 --> 00:27:10,428
it should not be built until it can be
done safely.

489
00:27:11,808 --> 00:27:15,748
And from Stop AI's position,

490
00:27:15,828 --> 00:27:16,447
there is

491
00:27:18,208 --> 00:27:22,168
no- It's in-
it's inherently a contradiction in terms.

492
00:27:22,228 --> 00:27:25,508
This technology cannot ever be done safely

493
00:27:26,428 --> 00:27:30,388
because unlike o-
every other technology we've deployed,

494
00:27:30,428 --> 00:27:31,368
been able to test

495
00:27:31,828 --> 00:27:35,668
repeatedly... prototypes

496
00:27:37,048 --> 00:27:40,808
and refine and iterate through
engineering.

497
00:27:40,848 --> 00:27:41,118
And

498
00:27:41,967 --> 00:27:45,947
with superintelligence, there
is the very real risk that you don't get a

499
00:27:45,988 --> 00:27:49,467
second chance. If you build a system
which is

500
00:27:49,608 --> 00:27:51,708
capable enough to take

501
00:27:52,548 --> 00:27:54,668
control of the world and humanity's

502
00:27:54,708 --> 00:27:58,357
fate, you may not get a second chance

503
00:27:58,648 --> 00:28:02,108
at...
you may not get a chance to shut that off,

504
00:28:02,168 --> 00:28:04,408
You may have just locked yourself into

505
00:28:05,308 --> 00:28:07,788
inevitable loss of control. And

506
00:28:10,687 --> 00:28:13,388
I don't trust any theory which

507
00:28:14,608 --> 00:28:17,588
gives predictions about the behavior of a
system like this.

508
00:28:17,608 --> 00:28:21,528
It's not enough to have theory.
It must be tested through

509
00:28:21,568 --> 00:28:23,628
experiment. And this is just not

510
00:28:24,967 --> 00:28:28,808
a regime,
the creation of superintelligence,

511
00:28:29,348 --> 00:28:32,108
experimentation. Um,

512
00:28:33,268 --> 00:28:37,187
you know, we... there are airplanes

513
00:28:37,228 --> 00:28:39,588
that leave the ground based on theory

514
00:28:40,467 --> 00:28:43,487
and there are people
that get in those airplanes,

515
00:28:43,588 --> 00:28:47,538
pilots. I'm not willing for my

516
00:28:47,588 --> 00:28:50,148
family, against our

517
00:28:50,188 --> 00:28:53,428
will, to be the test subjects

518
00:28:54,208 --> 00:28:58,078
of the AI company's superintelligence
experiments, and I

519
00:28:58,108 --> 00:29:02,098
don't think anyone should. So,
that's primarily the difference in goals.

520
00:29:02,128 --> 00:29:05,578
There is a s- a-
an ultimate goal of stopping

521
00:29:05,578 --> 00:29:09,418
superintelligence permanently,
which means creating a world in

522
00:29:09,467 --> 00:29:13,328
which it is possible to do so
indefinitely, that we have the

523
00:29:13,338 --> 00:29:15,228
social institutions, the

524
00:29:16,268 --> 00:29:20,197
relations among people which no longer

525
00:29:20,248 --> 00:29:23,728
produce this race and this unstoppable

526
00:29:23,788 --> 00:29:26,248
drive to build ever more powerful AI

527
00:29:26,288 --> 00:29:30,108
systems. And in terms of how, how we stop

528
00:29:30,148 --> 00:29:33,928
that race, like in the near term, there
is also like a- a strategic difference

529
00:29:34,467 --> 00:29:34,828
in that

530
00:29:36,447 --> 00:29:40,338
I personally, and it's generally the, the

531
00:29:41,428 --> 00:29:43,318
approach of Stop AI, that

532
00:29:45,388 --> 00:29:48,008
the urgency of this situation demands
direct

533
00:29:48,048 --> 00:29:49,467
action,

534
00:29:51,268 --> 00:29:52,308
that the

535
00:29:53,228 --> 00:29:56,508
institution, the... It's a- it's a-
it's an estimation that the

536
00:29:56,568 --> 00:30:00,348
institutions of government and of economy,
that the

537
00:30:00,388 --> 00:30:02,498
rules of the system as they are set up now

538
00:30:05,388 --> 00:30:09,148
will produce,
with overwhelming likelihood,

539
00:30:09,248 --> 00:30:12,638
um, the bad outcome here. And that

540
00:30:14,388 --> 00:30:16,378
there is a phenomenon in social...

541
00:30:16,428 --> 00:30:20,208
in, in this- in the history of,
of world society which is able to

542
00:30:20,228 --> 00:30:23,128
produce very rapid changes in government

543
00:30:23,168 --> 00:30:27,043
policy.And in fact,
it does so about every two or three

544
00:30:27,063 --> 00:30:30,873
years somewhere in the world. And this
is mass parta- participation

545
00:30:30,984 --> 00:30:34,464
civil disobedience. This is when people en

546
00:30:34,533 --> 00:30:38,244
masse, in large numbers, refuse to

547
00:30:38,323 --> 00:30:41,303
allow society to continue as

548
00:30:41,343 --> 00:30:45,283
normal until their demand is met. And

549
00:30:45,363 --> 00:30:49,184
sometimes this is a, a,
a demand for a change in the law,

550
00:30:49,204 --> 00:30:51,573
demand for a change in the government.

551
00:30:51,603 --> 00:30:54,623
And like I said,
a movement like this succeeds in achieving

552
00:30:54,644 --> 00:30:58,323
in the world about every two
or three years. This is a f-...

553
00:30:58,333 --> 00:31:02,184
This is not a one-off thing. It
is a social phenomenon,

554
00:31:02,224 --> 00:31:02,543
which is

555
00:31:03,684 --> 00:31:06,323
nearly... It was essentially universal.

556
00:31:06,404 --> 00:31:10,303
It's...
It is a way for societies to rapidly

557
00:31:10,343 --> 00:31:14,264
change direction under extreme duress,
which we

558
00:31:14,363 --> 00:31:15,934
are in now, and which

559
00:31:16,904 --> 00:31:19,823
we are increasingly approaching,

560
00:31:19,924 --> 00:31:23,603
right? So- so this is the approach

561
00:31:23,684 --> 00:31:27,004
which StopAI has chosen. It
is to take direct

562
00:31:27,103 --> 00:31:30,704
action as the catalyst and as the motive

563
00:31:30,764 --> 00:31:34,033
force of building an assertive, vital

564
00:31:34,464 --> 00:31:38,363
social movement, which
is not content to go

565
00:31:38,384 --> 00:31:40,884
the reformist route and

566
00:31:42,123 --> 00:31:42,643
parlay

567
00:31:45,664 --> 00:31:48,783
potentially decades of time
that we don't have.

568
00:31:48,803 --> 00:31:49,464
Yeah.

569
00:31:49,504 --> 00:31:52,343
Right. So sometimes you,
you have to go outside the box.

570
00:31:52,363 --> 00:31:55,343
You have to break the rules. That's okay,
right?

571
00:31:55,464 --> 00:31:59,083
Uh, you know, I'm,
I'm going to court this, uh, next month

572
00:31:59,643 --> 00:32:03,404
in a case where I obstructed the operation
of

573
00:32:03,464 --> 00:32:07,224
OpenAI,
which is one of the leading companies

574
00:32:08,004 --> 00:32:08,283
And

575
00:32:09,384 --> 00:32:13,283
we're asserting and defending this right
of the public to take

576
00:32:13,323 --> 00:32:17,164
this kind of action, that it's... We
are asserting that it

577
00:32:17,204 --> 00:32:20,893
that it is morally justified. And there
is this

578
00:32:20,944 --> 00:32:24,474
concept in law called the defense of
necessity.

579
00:32:24,524 --> 00:32:24,853
This is

580
00:32:26,303 --> 00:32:27,373
an idea that goes back

581
00:32:29,724 --> 00:32:33,333
probably thousands of years.
I'm sure there's something like it in, in,

582
00:32:34,143 --> 00:32:37,504
legal systems around the world.
It's the understanding that sometimes it's

583
00:32:37,514 --> 00:32:40,053
necessary to break some laws for...

584
00:32:40,083 --> 00:32:43,103
To prevent a greater harm. Um, just

585
00:32:43,184 --> 00:32:46,063
like you would break the window of a,
of a car

586
00:32:47,004 --> 00:32:48,823
to rescue a child trapped inside,

587
00:32:49,724 --> 00:32:53,264
right?
There's no other alternative to save

588
00:32:53,904 --> 00:32:54,333
Yeah.

589
00:32:54,504 --> 00:32:56,803
That's the case we're in right now.

590
00:32:58,143 --> 00:33:01,184
We don't know how close these companies

591
00:33:01,283 --> 00:33:04,793
are from the next breakthrough, right?

592
00:33:04,803 --> 00:33:08,704
Remember,
it was one big breakthrough in 2017

593
00:33:08,724 --> 00:33:10,684
the field, the transformer.

594
00:33:10,694 --> 00:33:10,694
Mm-hmm.

595
00:33:10,744 --> 00:33:13,934
Right now, there are hundreds, you know,
hundreds of billions of dollars and

596
00:33:14,004 --> 00:33:15,592
thousands of the world's best engineers

597
00:33:16,563 --> 00:33:18,434
trying to make that next breakthrough.

598
00:33:18,484 --> 00:33:21,704
We don't know how, how close it is.
And this

599
00:33:21,764 --> 00:33:25,634
uncertainty should not be cause for
inaction.

600
00:33:25,643 --> 00:33:29,524
It should be cause for preventative,
precautionary action,

601
00:33:29,563 --> 00:33:32,924
because the consequences are so large,
right?

602
00:33:32,984 --> 00:33:33,853
Yeah, yeah, go ahead.

603
00:33:33,863 --> 00:33:34,524
So, yeah.

604
00:33:34,623 --> 00:33:37,293
Uh, yeah, I'm really sorry. I, I just,
I just don't have-

605
00:33:37,303 --> 00:33:38,984
No, no worries. Go ahead. Do your,
do your thing.

606
00:33:38,994 --> 00:33:41,583
No, no, I get it. You're...
Everything you're saying

607
00:33:41,684 --> 00:33:45,504
Uh,
I wanted to dive more specifically into

608
00:33:45,603 --> 00:33:49,024
disagreement, uh, because, you know,
I think it seems useful to actually

609
00:33:49,603 --> 00:33:51,524
get people on board, you know,
doing things.

610
00:33:51,623 --> 00:33:55,603
Uh,
so the specific argument you mentioned,

611
00:33:55,623 --> 00:33:59,004
you know, we don't get, you know,
like 50 tries to build superintelligence.

612
00:33:59,043 --> 00:34:02,063
You know, the first time you do it,
if you do it wrong, you know,

613
00:34:02,083 --> 00:34:06,073
Like,
you can't really experiment with this and,

614
00:34:06,083 --> 00:34:10,004
over many years. Like, this
is a pretty popular argument

615
00:34:10,083 --> 00:34:13,844
by Eliezer Yudkowsky.
I think he's also completely on board with

616
00:34:13,884 --> 00:34:17,804
this specific argument, uh, that,
you know, we can't experiment

617
00:34:17,844 --> 00:34:21,444
with it. You know, we
are not going to solve, you know, safety

618
00:34:21,504 --> 00:34:25,344
alignment in, you know, five years,
10 years, probably in 20 years.

619
00:34:25,464 --> 00:34:29,043
Uh, maybe I would just ask, like, uh, how

620
00:34:29,163 --> 00:34:33,103
familiar are you with, you know,
Eliezer Yudkowsky's views

621
00:34:33,123 --> 00:34:36,993
on this issue, uh, considering, of course,
that he's one of the founders of, you

622
00:34:37,043 --> 00:34:40,933
know, AI risk as a field? And, yeah, I

623
00:34:41,004 --> 00:34:44,543
mean, like, where exact... Like, since,
you know, he actually

624
00:34:44,603 --> 00:34:48,424
agrees with you on this core point, like,
does that mean you both just,

625
00:34:48,444 --> 00:34:52,183
like, agree on everything? Like,
where exactly is the disagreement coming?

626
00:34:52,223 --> 00:34:55,964
You know, why is, you know,
Yudkowsky not sitting on a hunger strike

627
00:34:56,043 --> 00:34:58,464
like, you know, you are?

628
00:34:59,783 --> 00:35:03,054
Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Um, I-
I'm not terri...

629
00:35:03,054 --> 00:35:06,524
Uh, I'm honestly,
I'm not terribly familiar with, uh,

630
00:35:06,644 --> 00:35:10,144
uh, Eliezer Yudkowsky's, um, uh,

631
00:35:10,264 --> 00:35:14,134
work. Um, I don't think I've... I may,
I've read maybe a, a

632
00:35:14,183 --> 00:35:16,564
couple of papers or something. Um,

633
00:35:18,144 --> 00:35:21,084
so I'm not really sure what his position
is.

634
00:35:21,144 --> 00:35:24,904
There are some things
that he's said publicly that I do disagree

635
00:35:24,964 --> 00:35:27,524
with and, uh,

636
00:35:29,104 --> 00:35:32,964
I think, um, I think I disagree on others,
but I'm

637
00:35:33,004 --> 00:35:35,493
not, I'm not sure. So,

638
00:35:38,084 --> 00:35:41,944
I'm not sure where he stands on this issue
of alignment

639
00:35:42,004 --> 00:35:45,194
or safety. It seems, it seems to be...

640
00:35:45,243 --> 00:35:49,104
Like, what I'm... My position, you know,
is that this

641
00:35:49,163 --> 00:35:53,104
should never be done. And it must,
it must never

642
00:35:53,203 --> 00:35:56,604
be done,
and we have an obligation to not do it,

643
00:35:56,703 --> 00:35:59,264
stop the people that are doing it.

644
00:35:59,364 --> 00:36:00,834
Mm-hmm.

645
00:36:00,834 --> 00:36:03,984
Um, which s-
seems in contradiction to the idea

646
00:36:04,044 --> 00:36:07,384
that one can align a superintelligence

647
00:36:09,783 --> 00:36:13,723
a priori, right? By, by, by ex- by theory.

648
00:36:13,743 --> 00:36:14,604
Mm-hmm.

649
00:36:14,703 --> 00:36:16,624
Also, the, the alignment of,

650
00:36:17,484 --> 00:36:20,644
of such a system is deeply problematic in
terms

651
00:36:20,723 --> 00:36:21,654
of,

652
00:36:21,764 --> 00:36:25,816
um...What

653
00:36:25,856 --> 00:36:29,516
goals is it being pointed to? Also, the

654
00:36:29,576 --> 00:36:33,386
idea that such a s- the idea that such a,
a

655
00:36:33,516 --> 00:36:37,376
capable, self-reflecting,
self-improving system,

656
00:36:37,476 --> 00:36:37,756
um,

657
00:36:39,776 --> 00:36:43,616
s- would,
would be faithful to any goal which

658
00:36:43,676 --> 00:36:45,556
is externally,

659
00:36:46,996 --> 00:36:50,696
uh, imposed or structured into it seems

660
00:36:51,316 --> 00:36:52,556
also very suspect.

661
00:36:53,596 --> 00:36:57,236
So I- I- I believe that the- the

662
00:36:57,316 --> 00:37:01,176
concept of alignment in itself is very,

663
00:37:01,276 --> 00:37:02,766
um, misleading

664
00:37:03,796 --> 00:37:06,636
in the sense that it may serve the
function of

665
00:37:07,936 --> 00:37:10,856
causing people to be less concerned

666
00:37:11,696 --> 00:37:15,076
about the development of super
intelligence.

667
00:37:15,176 --> 00:37:19,136
That there's-
there's a natural human tendency to-

668
00:37:19,316 --> 00:37:22,776
want to have to exert one's self

669
00:37:22,836 --> 00:37:26,696
beyond one's normal affairs. And if people

670
00:37:27,156 --> 00:37:30,896
can feel that this problem's being solved
for them by

671
00:37:30,956 --> 00:37:31,536
someone else,

672
00:37:32,536 --> 00:37:35,276
it's a very reassuring kind of, um,

673
00:37:36,376 --> 00:37:38,976
story to tell oneself, which excuses

674
00:37:40,016 --> 00:37:40,756
taking action

675
00:37:42,356 --> 00:37:44,696
yourself to stop it.

676
00:37:44,796 --> 00:37:47,536
So, um,

677
00:37:49,236 --> 00:37:53,126
I think there's- there's also the-
there's also, um,

678
00:37:54,276 --> 00:37:54,336
a, um

679
00:37:55,216 --> 00:37:59,156
...
something that's come to my attention

680
00:37:59,936 --> 00:38:01,376
by, uh,

681
00:38:02,436 --> 00:38:06,296
Yudkowsky about the value,
the relative value of

682
00:38:06,336 --> 00:38:08,276
human life and

683
00:38:10,156 --> 00:38:13,556
putative, um,

684
00:38:15,716 --> 00:38:16,776
super intelligences,

685
00:38:18,576 --> 00:38:21,666
which is that the sacrifice of the
existence of humanity

686
00:38:22,516 --> 00:38:22,996
would be

687
00:38:24,316 --> 00:38:24,916
acceptable

688
00:38:26,256 --> 00:38:28,396
in order to bring into existence

689
00:38:29,516 --> 00:38:32,496
a more morally valuable super

690
00:38:32,536 --> 00:38:34,776
intelligence, which

691
00:38:36,436 --> 00:38:39,056
I categorically, fundamentally disagree

692
00:38:39,096 --> 00:38:42,276
with. Um,

693
00:38:43,976 --> 00:38:44,296
and

694
00:38:46,516 --> 00:38:50,336
... I don't think this ever can

695
00:38:50,476 --> 00:38:54,296
be or should be done safely. And this

696
00:38:54,356 --> 00:38:55,586
is- this is- this is,

697
00:38:56,876 --> 00:39:00,736
like, a f- this is a-
a fundamental motivation for the work

698
00:39:00,796 --> 00:39:04,656
that I do. As- as to

699
00:39:04,696 --> 00:39:07,556
why, uh, Yudkowsky
is not on hunger strike.

700
00:39:07,596 --> 00:39:11,456
That's a good question.
People can find many different reasons not

701
00:39:11,525 --> 00:39:15,436
do things. Anyways, was that good or
was there any part you,

702
00:39:15,676 --> 00:39:16,196
uh, wanna cover more?

703
00:39:16,206 --> 00:39:20,016
No, that is a really good answer. Uh,
maybe I

704
00:39:20,056 --> 00:39:23,896
should put it this way. Uh, so ha-
I'm assuming you've seen,

705
00:39:23,936 --> 00:39:27,025
like, the statement by, you know,
Center for AI Safety, Dan Hendricks,

706
00:39:27,036 --> 00:39:30,996
like, uh,
mitigating risk of extinction of AI

707
00:39:31,096 --> 00:39:33,936
and it was signed by, you know,
a whole number of people.

708
00:39:33,946 --> 00:39:37,886
And I think that has actually, you know,
moved- pushed the movement

709
00:39:37,996 --> 00:39:41,516
forward in, like,
bringing this consensus that, okay, look,

710
00:39:41,576 --> 00:39:44,936
know, high credentialed, important,
you know, knowledgeable people actually do

711
00:39:44,996 --> 00:39:48,986
agree with this. I wonder
if there's value in doing a similar

712
00:39:49,056 --> 00:39:52,736
statement, you know, just even among the,
let's say, groups who are protesting

713
00:39:52,776 --> 00:39:56,656
right now or involved in public advocacy
that, you know,

714
00:39:56,696 --> 00:40:00,016
look, here is a core statement that,
you know, we all do agree on.

715
00:40:00,036 --> 00:40:02,776
Like, you know, we might have, you know,
certain various disagreements of our own,

716
00:40:02,796 --> 00:40:06,716
and you know, that's fine,
but can we at least, you know, like,

717
00:40:06,736 --> 00:40:09,676
some consensus-building. Like, you know,
here is a statement that we all agree on.

718
00:40:09,696 --> 00:40:13,655
Like, do you think s- like,
such a statement, you know,

719
00:40:13,706 --> 00:40:15,836
Do you have opinions on, you know,
what the exact statement should

720
00:40:15,896 --> 00:40:18,356
be?

721
00:40:19,676 --> 00:40:20,226
Um ...

722
00:40:23,876 --> 00:40:24,296
hm.

723
00:40:25,916 --> 00:40:29,906
Maybe could be valuable. Um, I think the-
the first

724
00:40:29,936 --> 00:40:33,796
statement was very valuable in the sense
that it provided a reference

725
00:40:33,836 --> 00:40:37,656
point for the public. It, um,
and provides,

726
00:40:37,716 --> 00:40:40,556
right? It's- it's very-

727
00:40:41,836 --> 00:40:45,716
it's very useful if you're-
when you're mobilizing people to take

728
00:40:45,756 --> 00:40:49,716
to something like that and show
that there are,

729
00:40:49,756 --> 00:40:51,616
you know, respected, credentialed

730
00:40:52,436 --> 00:40:56,316
authorities who accept this as

731
00:40:56,456 --> 00:41:00,436
a- as a real risk. And this is,
for me at least, this is the

732
00:41:00,476 --> 00:41:03,426
primary value in a statement like that.

733
00:41:03,476 --> 00:41:03,996
It's that

734
00:41:04,936 --> 00:41:08,896
it enables and it facilitates public
outreach.

735
00:41:09,016 --> 00:41:09,286
Um,

736
00:41:11,236 --> 00:41:13,896
uh, a similar statement, g- getting,

737
00:41:14,916 --> 00:41:18,876
uh, all these groups on board, uh, I-
I don't

738
00:41:18,916 --> 00:41:22,476
think it could hurt per se. Um, except

739
00:41:22,656 --> 00:41:26,576
insofar that it- if it- if

740
00:41:26,636 --> 00:41:26,686
it

741
00:41:27,776 --> 00:41:30,636
obfuscates the- the larger issue of

742
00:41:31,856 --> 00:41:33,596
...

743
00:41:36,356 --> 00:41:39,896
for example, Stop AI w-
does not want to give the

744
00:41:39,916 --> 00:41:43,736
impression that it agrees
that super intelligence can ever be

745
00:41:43,776 --> 00:41:47,536
built safely, which
is the stated position of a lot of

746
00:41:47,576 --> 00:41:51,556
other- these other groups.
I think we all can agree that the-

747
00:41:53,256 --> 00:41:56,896
should end now, and the difference is
that I think Stop

748
00:41:56,956 --> 00:41:57,336
AI

749
00:41:58,536 --> 00:42:01,986
acts as though it must end now, and we're

750
00:42:02,016 --> 00:42:05,996
encouraging other people to- to take
that action, because if

751
00:42:06,056 --> 00:42:09,356
it must end now and if the companies are

752
00:42:09,376 --> 00:42:12,996
not ending it and the government's not
ending it, then we

753
00:42:13,116 --> 00:42:16,396
must act, and this is the- this
is the core thing.

754
00:42:16,416 --> 00:42:19,916
It's simply not enough to write a letter
to

755
00:42:19,956 --> 00:42:23,836
your representative
or to call your representative

756
00:42:24,576 --> 00:42:28,506
and another day goes by
and we get closer

757
00:42:28,516 --> 00:42:31,706
we get closer to this point of no return
where we don't know where it

758
00:42:31,776 --> 00:42:35,638
is. We-People who understand this risk,
and this

759
00:42:35,688 --> 00:42:37,677
is- goes for the authorities
that signed that letter,

760
00:42:39,208 --> 00:42:43,188
what would be much more useful
is for them to go

761
00:42:43,228 --> 00:42:45,068
farther in that sa- in that letter.

762
00:42:45,128 --> 00:42:48,807
Rather than saying it
is merely a risk that should

763
00:42:50,868 --> 00:42:54,638
merit some precaution, to actually state,

764
00:42:54,638 --> 00:42:57,368
"We are now, given the circumstances,
in an

765
00:42:57,388 --> 00:43:01,258
emergency." And to even go farther, that,

766
00:43:01,288 --> 00:43:05,108
to say that, "Given the ina-
inaction by our

767
00:43:05,148 --> 00:43:09,038
government, non-violent direct action
is necessary and

768
00:43:09,048 --> 00:43:12,718
justified," this would be incredibly
useful in mobilizing

769
00:43:12,748 --> 00:43:16,688
people. And this is,
from my point of view, the only real

770
00:43:16,748 --> 00:43:20,448
game in town.
There's not going to be the political will

771
00:43:20,508 --> 00:43:24,158
mobilized, strident movement making

772
00:43:24,168 --> 00:43:26,488
demands for an immediate end to this

773
00:43:26,508 --> 00:43:30,268
race. And from my point of view,
the most important thing

774
00:43:30,328 --> 00:43:33,268
is what actually assists

775
00:43:33,368 --> 00:43:35,288
in creating that

776
00:43:35,328 --> 00:43:37,968
movement.

777
00:43:38,148 --> 00:43:40,588
Got it. Got it, got it. That makes sense.

778
00:43:40,688 --> 00:43:44,108
Uh, yeah,
I think I then wanted to move to a

779
00:43:44,148 --> 00:43:48,108
question, uh, which is, again,
coming back to, you know,

780
00:43:48,148 --> 00:43:52,028
the movement?
I wanted to ask about funding

781
00:43:52,048 --> 00:43:54,688
So, like, you know, this
is something I can imagine, and, you know,

782
00:43:54,728 --> 00:43:55,608
or disagree, but,

783
00:43:56,868 --> 00:44:00,428
like, uh, I can imagine a person who has,
you know, a tech

784
00:44:00,508 --> 00:44:03,568
job,
they broadly agree with the arguments for

785
00:44:03,628 --> 00:44:07,608
risk, but they're like, "You look,
you know, I have, you know, dependents.

786
00:44:07,668 --> 00:44:10,608
I need to make a certain amount of money
to, you know, sustain myself, to sustain

787
00:44:10,668 --> 00:44:14,418
people around me. And, you know,
if I just come and protest, you know,

788
00:44:14,468 --> 00:44:18,028
there's no money in that. You know,
it's just financially,

789
00:44:18,048 --> 00:44:21,948
bad for me." So,
I do think it makes sense for,

790
00:44:21,988 --> 00:44:25,248
like,
social movements like this to figure out a

791
00:44:25,348 --> 00:44:29,268
Uh, do you have a sense of, like, how
that funding can be

792
00:44:29,888 --> 00:44:33,228
raised? Like, would that be primarily,
you know, through donations?

793
00:44:33,268 --> 00:44:36,568
Could that be, you know... And by the way,
I don't have a strong opinion, you know,

794
00:44:36,588 --> 00:44:39,098
which of these would actually work, but,
like, I'm just asking your opinion, you

795
00:44:39,148 --> 00:44:42,408
know? Would that be donations? Could
that be, you know, let's say, you know,

796
00:44:42,468 --> 00:44:44,968
a YouTube channel and you run ads on it?

797
00:44:45,008 --> 00:44:48,148
Could that be, you know,
you provide consultancy to other groups,

798
00:44:48,188 --> 00:44:50,488
on your actual knowledge expertise you
have accumulated?

799
00:44:50,528 --> 00:44:54,448
Like, do you have a sense of, like,
how you could actually get

800
00:44:54,488 --> 00:44:56,068
funding to, you know, scale up the

801
00:44:56,108 --> 00:44:58,688
movement?

802
00:44:59,868 --> 00:45:02,888
Yeah, I have, I have a general,
a general idea.

803
00:45:02,988 --> 00:45:03,248
Um,

804
00:45:04,948 --> 00:45:05,288
like,

805
00:45:06,548 --> 00:45:10,128
the- this has been done in the past,
right?

806
00:45:10,888 --> 00:45:12,248
Um,

807
00:45:13,088 --> 00:45:16,528
the-
there have been many social movements in

808
00:45:16,568 --> 00:45:20,308
essentially member-supported.
And I think the

809
00:45:20,328 --> 00:45:23,577
important thing is creating a movement
which is worthy

810
00:45:24,208 --> 00:45:24,718
of support

811
00:45:25,768 --> 00:45:29,418
and which people ha-
can have confidence and

812
00:45:29,468 --> 00:45:29,768
faith

813
00:45:31,728 --> 00:45:32,548
in its ability,

814
00:45:33,508 --> 00:45:36,688
its potential ability,
to accomplish these goals.

815
00:45:36,708 --> 00:45:36,857
Okay.

816
00:45:37,368 --> 00:45:41,208
And so there's a, you know, there are,
there are literally

817
00:45:41,328 --> 00:45:44,448
millions and tens of millions of people
that are concerned about

818
00:45:45,528 --> 00:45:48,868
where this is all going,
and some of them are very deeply

819
00:45:48,908 --> 00:45:51,108
concerned. And like you said,

820
00:45:52,108 --> 00:45:54,357
there's two,
two sides to the example you brought up.

821
00:45:56,328 --> 00:45:59,748
One is, you can do a lot on a large scale

822
00:46:00,208 --> 00:46:01,688
if millions of people

823
00:46:02,988 --> 00:46:05,048
can be mobilized in support

824
00:46:06,108 --> 00:46:08,478
of a direct action

825
00:46:08,508 --> 00:46:11,638
movement. Millions of people times

826
00:46:13,208 --> 00:46:17,168
a dollar a month, 10 dollars a month,
is millions of dollars,

827
00:46:17,208 --> 00:46:19,928
tens of millions of dollars,
which can be deployed

828
00:46:20,808 --> 00:46:22,797
to mobilize people for direct action.

829
00:46:23,448 --> 00:46:25,768
So it's, in, in a very real sense,
it's a problem of

830
00:46:25,808 --> 00:46:29,628
logistics. My experience with Stop AI
is with a handful of

831
00:46:29,688 --> 00:46:33,188
organizers going out into the community
through methods of direct

832
00:46:33,268 --> 00:46:35,088
face-to-face mobilization,

833
00:46:36,128 --> 00:46:36,468
and

834
00:46:38,468 --> 00:46:39,288
we have found

835
00:46:40,648 --> 00:46:43,778
several people, right? The,
the largest action that

836
00:46:44,868 --> 00:46:48,728
has ever been done by Stop AI involved
five people.

837
00:46:50,548 --> 00:46:54,228
It's not a, it's not a large number,
but it's also the work of a very small

838
00:46:54,267 --> 00:46:58,068
of mobilizers. If this is systematized and

839
00:46:58,148 --> 00:46:58,738
organized

840
00:47:00,768 --> 00:47:03,878
with 100 mobilizers, I think it's very

841
00:47:04,468 --> 00:47:08,228
realistic to find that within society,
you will find it,

842
00:47:08,268 --> 00:47:12,188
100 people to take direct action.
Not everyone is gonna be

843
00:47:12,288 --> 00:47:16,228
like your software engineer who has, uh,
you know, such a managerial

844
00:47:16,268 --> 00:47:19,348
position that it's very hard for them to

845
00:47:19,408 --> 00:47:23,328
make a very costly sacrifice.

846
00:47:23,348 --> 00:47:27,008
But there are many people who
are able to do that, and it's a logistical

847
00:47:27,088 --> 00:47:31,028
question of finding them
and mobilizing them and showing and

848
00:47:31,068 --> 00:47:34,868
encouraging them to stand up for their
rights, which is what this is really, at a

849
00:47:34,908 --> 00:47:38,708
fundamental level, about.
There's no guarantee

850
00:47:38,748 --> 00:47:42,108
rights is going to be free, right?
It's often going to be very

851
00:47:42,148 --> 00:47:43,208
costly.

852
00:47:43,228 --> 00:47:43,508
Yeah.

853
00:47:43,578 --> 00:47:45,768
But we're also the inheritors

854
00:47:47,208 --> 00:47:51,148
of generations before us who made very
costly sacrifices

855
00:47:51,228 --> 00:47:54,728
for our freedom and our rights.
And so there's something that goes

856
00:47:54,768 --> 00:47:58,748
beyond the day-to-day material
calculations,

857
00:47:58,828 --> 00:47:59,808
right?

858
00:47:59,848 --> 00:48:02,418
Yep.

859
00:48:02,668 --> 00:48:03,958
100 people, you know,

860
00:48:04,948 --> 00:48:08,668
in front of OpenAI,
in front of the other AI companies pushing

861
00:48:08,948 --> 00:48:09,688
annihilation,

862
00:48:11,028 --> 00:48:14,968
would make much bigger headlines,
would have a much bigger effect in, in

863
00:48:15,448 --> 00:48:18,258
galvanizing public opinion, and in...

864
00:48:19,508 --> 00:48:23,368
Excuse the, the noise. Okay,
are you picking that

865
00:48:23,408 --> 00:48:24,188
up on the-

866
00:48:24,228 --> 00:48:24,528
Yeah, yeah-

867
00:48:24,608 --> 00:48:24,798
... on your end?

868
00:48:24,798 --> 00:48:26,508
Your voice is clear, yes.

869
00:48:26,608 --> 00:48:30,328
Oh, okay. Yeah,
there's some background noise. You know?

870
00:48:30,348 --> 00:48:34,008
But with millions of people in support,
a movement could

871
00:48:34,068 --> 00:48:37,692
find......
thousands of people to take direct action.

872
00:48:37,732 --> 00:48:41,412
This is absolutely in the realm of th-
the immediate present

873
00:48:41,432 --> 00:48:45,012
possibility. The conditions in society
are such, it's

874
00:48:45,092 --> 00:48:46,852
simply a question of

875
00:48:49,252 --> 00:48:52,691
interfacing with society on a large enough
surface

876
00:48:53,112 --> 00:48:57,092
to find those people
and organize these actions.

877
00:48:57,102 --> 00:48:57,422
And

878
00:48:59,432 --> 00:49:02,732
this can have a transformative effect in
unlocking the

879
00:49:02,752 --> 00:49:06,192
nonlinear potential of society to ch-
change.

880
00:49:06,252 --> 00:49:10,212
So for, for example, in the, in the,
in the Birmingham

881
00:49:10,252 --> 00:49:13,912
campaign, the Children's March
that I mentioned earlier, 5,000

882
00:49:13,952 --> 00:49:15,752
schoolchildren were arrested

883
00:49:16,991 --> 00:49:17,652
and spent

884
00:49:18,712 --> 00:49:22,602
some time in jail. But it changed

885
00:49:23,772 --> 00:49:26,752
the public perception of an entire
country.

886
00:49:26,762 --> 00:49:30,632
It got attention at the level of the
national government, and it

887
00:49:30,672 --> 00:49:33,382
led directly to the introduction of the
Civil Rights Act.

888
00:49:33,412 --> 00:49:36,462
It's not an understatement to say
that the Civil Rights Act of

889
00:49:36,532 --> 00:49:40,002
1964 was a direct consequence of those

890
00:49:40,232 --> 00:49:44,122
5,000 schoolchildren standing up for their
rights in 1963.

891
00:49:45,292 --> 00:49:48,442
And I believe that there
is similarly a tipping point in this

892
00:49:48,452 --> 00:49:52,132
society, because you can look at

893
00:49:52,172 --> 00:49:55,962
society and see that not much
is happening and then draw the conclusion

894
00:49:56,012 --> 00:49:59,582
that nobody is concerned. This
is not the case.

895
00:49:59,582 --> 00:50:00,102
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

896
00:50:00,192 --> 00:50:03,312
Many, many, many people
are deeply concerned.

897
00:50:03,322 --> 00:50:07,312
And I think you saw some evidence of this
with the recent pushback on

898
00:50:07,372 --> 00:50:11,072
the attempt to impose a 10-year moratorium
on AI regulation

899
00:50:11,712 --> 00:50:15,372
in the United States, which
was killed largely as a result of public

900
00:50:15,412 --> 00:50:16,491
outcry.

901
00:50:16,502 --> 00:50:16,502
Yeah.

902
00:50:16,552 --> 00:50:20,442
Even people who aren't willing,
because it's, uh,

903
00:50:20,512 --> 00:50:24,241
opinion, and people
are hesitant to hold minority opinions

904
00:50:24,452 --> 00:50:27,052
often publicly.

905
00:50:28,532 --> 00:50:31,392
Even young people who
are not willing to publicly acknowledge

906
00:50:32,372 --> 00:50:35,372
that they're worried about this extinction

907
00:50:35,412 --> 00:50:39,252
risk, I believe that in many, many people,

908
00:50:39,312 --> 00:50:43,112
maybe even most, there
is an awareness that this technology does

909
00:50:43,152 --> 00:50:46,032
threat. And there is a, a kind of

910
00:50:46,092 --> 00:50:50,002
conflict, even in people who are ve- you

911
00:50:50,052 --> 00:50:53,992
know,
might display the most outward bravado

912
00:50:54,032 --> 00:50:54,432
of it.

913
00:50:55,712 --> 00:50:59,491
And it's this,
these kinds of very public actions, which

914
00:50:59,592 --> 00:51:03,312
in mass, in a representative, you know,
that, that show a

915
00:51:03,332 --> 00:51:07,192
representative subsection of,
of the population being

916
00:51:07,212 --> 00:51:09,392
willing to take this contrarian position,

917
00:51:10,872 --> 00:51:14,792
because of their conviction,
which can strengthen

918
00:51:14,832 --> 00:51:18,761
in the heart of many, many people, to also

919
00:51:18,792 --> 00:51:22,112
gain the courage to say, "You know

920
00:51:22,172 --> 00:51:25,872
ra- you know what? I don't... This is,
this is real.

921
00:51:25,971 --> 00:51:29,652
I don't need to stop denying it,
and I've got a right to speak

922
00:51:29,752 --> 00:51:33,192
out, and I've got a right to demand
that this situation

923
00:51:33,312 --> 00:51:36,602
end." And so this is part of the, the

924
00:51:36,792 --> 00:51:40,272
mechanism of change, which
is not only theoretical.

925
00:51:40,312 --> 00:51:44,212
This is how social movements have changed
and do change

926
00:51:44,272 --> 00:51:48,192
the direction a- of entire countries,
you know, within a matter of

927
00:51:48,212 --> 00:51:49,252
days or weeks.

928
00:51:51,612 --> 00:51:53,361
So...

929
00:51:53,392 --> 00:51:55,932
Got it, got it, got it. That
is a good answer.

930
00:51:56,052 --> 00:51:58,932
Uh,
maybe then I'll just go to a really simple

931
00:51:58,952 --> 00:52:02,532
You know, uh, which day are you on

932
00:52:02,572 --> 00:52:06,072
currently? How long do you plan to,
you know, continue this hunger strike?

933
00:52:06,112 --> 00:52:09,162
Like,
just with the hunger strike specifically,

934
00:52:12,112 --> 00:52:15,032
Uh, yeah. Uh, today after I finish

935
00:52:15,852 --> 00:52:19,032
here, I'll be going out to Anthropic,
and it will be the 16th

936
00:52:19,152 --> 00:52:23,112
day which I've been publicly in front of
Anthropic.

937
00:52:23,172 --> 00:52:25,361
Mm-hmm. Yeah.

938
00:52:25,632 --> 00:52:29,511
Um, I s- I started, I-
I started fasting the day before in

939
00:52:29,552 --> 00:52:33,432
be 17 days that I've gone without food,
but 16 days as

940
00:52:33,492 --> 00:52:35,112
a public political act.

941
00:52:35,812 --> 00:52:35,822
Okay.

942
00:52:35,872 --> 00:52:36,212
And

943
00:52:37,172 --> 00:52:41,052
on the, on the first day
that I went there, I delivered a

944
00:52:41,092 --> 00:52:43,752
letter to the security desk for Mr.

945
00:52:43,792 --> 00:52:45,412
Amodei,

946
00:52:46,952 --> 00:52:50,932
telling him... asking him

947
00:52:50,971 --> 00:52:54,711
to stop putting my lives, my life
and the lives of my

948
00:52:54,752 --> 00:52:58,572
family in danger,
which he's publicly acknowledged

949
00:52:58,612 --> 00:53:01,922
this race does.

950
00:53:02,552 --> 00:53:03,552
Asking him instead

951
00:53:04,432 --> 00:53:06,172
to use all his power

952
00:53:07,612 --> 00:53:09,792
to do everything in his ability

953
00:53:11,492 --> 00:53:15,372
to work for a stop to this race globally,
which is

954
00:53:15,452 --> 00:53:19,172
the absolutely necessary condition for our
survival, a

955
00:53:19,212 --> 00:53:23,192
global end, through government regulation,
through international

956
00:53:23,212 --> 00:53:26,852
accord. And Anthropic and Mr. Amodei

957
00:53:26,892 --> 00:53:27,352
personally

958
00:53:29,212 --> 00:53:32,082
could have an immense effect in mobilizing

959
00:53:33,212 --> 00:53:37,092
the public will to demand such an accord.

960
00:53:38,572 --> 00:53:39,482
Thank you.

961
00:53:39,592 --> 00:53:43,402
Also,
to fulfill the obligation to ensure that

962
00:53:43,452 --> 00:53:46,382
society is made aware of what's going on
in these

963
00:53:46,412 --> 00:53:49,692
companies, to be made aware of the

964
00:53:49,732 --> 00:53:53,652
fact that Anthropic is

965
00:53:53,692 --> 00:53:56,612
contributing to this race, which poses

966
00:53:57,692 --> 00:54:01,132
potentially near-term risk of destruction
of our entire

967
00:54:01,172 --> 00:54:02,812
society.

968
00:54:04,272 --> 00:54:08,092
And finally,
if he's unwilling to do any of

969
00:54:08,132 --> 00:54:10,432
those things, to meet with me personally

970
00:54:11,452 --> 00:54:13,462
and explain why he feels the right

971
00:54:14,812 --> 00:54:18,632
to put my life, my children's lives,
our entire society at

972
00:54:18,672 --> 00:54:22,652
risk.
And I told him I'd be waiting outside

973
00:54:22,712 --> 00:54:23,192
his door

974
00:54:24,092 --> 00:54:26,832
for his answer, and that's my intention,
to wait

975
00:54:27,632 --> 00:54:28,772
outside his doors

976
00:54:29,832 --> 00:54:32,752
until I'm answered.

977
00:54:35,212 --> 00:54:41,852
And-I'm

978
00:54:41,862 --> 00:54:42,742
also doing this

979
00:54:44,912 --> 00:54:48,872
to fulfill my responsibility to my
children and the society

980
00:54:48,912 --> 00:54:52,872
that I'm a part of. I can't, I

981
00:54:52,932 --> 00:54:56,452
can't live with myself
if I let this society

982
00:54:56,532 --> 00:55:00,022
sleepwalk into disaster,

983
00:55:00,072 --> 00:55:02,412
right?

984
00:55:03,352 --> 00:55:07,092
I can't live with myself
if I don't do everything in

985
00:55:07,132 --> 00:55:07,702
my power

986
00:55:08,892 --> 00:55:09,492
to ensure

987
00:55:10,532 --> 00:55:13,791
there's a world for my children.

988
00:55:16,472 --> 00:55:19,932
And I think all of us
that understand this risk have a similar

989
00:55:19,972 --> 00:55:23,672
responsibility,
and it's up to each person to question

990
00:55:24,492 --> 00:55:24,792
about

991
00:55:26,612 --> 00:55:29,372
what they are able to do. Not what's

992
00:55:29,432 --> 00:55:33,392
convenient,
not what would fit into their schedule,

993
00:55:33,432 --> 00:55:37,332
but what's actually necessary
and what's actually right in

994
00:55:37,372 --> 00:55:40,212
this case.

995
00:55:42,092 --> 00:55:44,532
Yeah. Yeah. Got it. That is

996
00:55:45,812 --> 00:55:48,032
(laughs) yeah,
something even I need to think more about.

997
00:55:48,272 --> 00:55:51,062
I really appreciate you giving this
answer.

998
00:55:51,212 --> 00:55:51,932
Uh-

999
00:55:51,972 --> 00:55:55,352
And thank,
thank you for joining in this conversation

1000
00:55:55,612 --> 00:55:59,332
putting, you know, a bit of your time
and convenience

1001
00:56:02,792 --> 00:56:05,812
behind the greater, the greater good.

1002
00:56:06,432 --> 00:56:06,622
Oh, yeah.

1003
00:56:06,652 --> 00:56:06,892
Right?

1004
00:56:06,902 --> 00:56:07,872
Oh, yeah.

1005
00:56:08,232 --> 00:56:10,032
I didn't expect that, you know-

1006
00:56:10,072 --> 00:56:10,082
Yeah.

1007
00:56:10,092 --> 00:56:11,892
When I started this, I had no idea that

1008
00:56:12,732 --> 00:56:16,212
this kind of response would, would happen,
and here we are having this conversation

1009
00:56:16,252 --> 00:56:16,512
now.

1010
00:56:18,312 --> 00:56:22,252
Oh, yes. Yes.
I completely believe with you on like,

1011
00:56:22,292 --> 00:56:25,572
change is possible. You know,
the first domino moves,

1012
00:56:25,582 --> 00:56:28,852
and you know, before you, you know it,
you know, thousands of people are actually

1013
00:56:28,892 --> 00:56:32,882
doing something about it. So yes,
I just want to be part of

1014
00:56:32,932 --> 00:56:36,772
the broader movement, the broader,
you know, effort to actually do something

1015
00:56:36,832 --> 00:56:40,592
about this. And yeah,
I definitely relate with you

1016
00:56:40,712 --> 00:56:44,472
on the aspect of like, look, if I was not

1017
00:56:44,592 --> 00:56:48,372
working on this, if I was just, you know,
trying to lead a comfortable life, you

1018
00:56:48,432 --> 00:56:52,032
know, just, you know, get a tech job,
you know, have vacations, you

1019
00:56:52,092 --> 00:56:55,592
know, have a partner, you know,
do just fun things with my life,

1020
00:56:55,632 --> 00:56:59,572
like,
like I would dislike myself as a person,

1021
00:56:59,612 --> 00:57:03,052
you know?
I would be just unhappy doing that,

1022
00:57:03,112 --> 00:57:06,032
actually done more and I chose not to,
and like that was on me.

1023
00:57:06,072 --> 00:57:09,812
Like,
so like I actually completely resonate

1024
00:57:09,872 --> 00:57:12,452
this sentiment of yours. Um-

1025
00:57:12,472 --> 00:57:14,072
I mean, that was my lived experience.

1026
00:57:14,132 --> 00:57:16,832
I, I,
there came a point where I could no longer

1027
00:57:17,012 --> 00:57:20,852
continue, you know, setting diamonds,
which was what I was

1028
00:57:20,932 --> 00:57:23,162
doing before, um,

1029
00:57:24,052 --> 00:57:27,972
knowing that other people
were making these decisions

1030
00:57:29,632 --> 00:57:32,362
that were going to have these consequences
for the people I

1031
00:57:32,392 --> 00:57:35,892
love. That's what caused me

1032
00:57:35,952 --> 00:57:38,042
to put this on hold and start doing

1033
00:57:39,132 --> 00:57:41,622
what I think is necessary.

1034
00:57:42,792 --> 00:57:46,572
Yeah. Got it. Uh,
I just wanted to then end with like a

1035
00:57:46,712 --> 00:57:50,332
final question, uh,
just for viewers of this

1036
00:57:50,372 --> 00:57:54,352
podcast. Like, uh, what is the, like,
very concrete, you know,

1037
00:57:54,392 --> 00:57:57,932
call to action? Like imagine, you know,
this viewer o- of this podcast, you know,

1038
00:57:58,012 --> 00:58:01,052
after this like they will spend, you know,
maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes actually

1039
00:58:01,072 --> 00:58:04,892
doing the next step. Like, uh,
what concretely would you

1040
00:58:04,912 --> 00:58:08,372
ask them to do? Would you ask them to,
you know, go watch a lecture, you know,

1041
00:58:08,412 --> 00:58:10,632
a book? Would you ask them to, you know,
email you?

1042
00:58:10,712 --> 00:58:13,772
Uh,
like just what concrete action would you

1043
00:58:13,852 --> 00:58:16,452
Uh, I would maybe split it into two.

1044
00:58:16,492 --> 00:58:16,732
So

1045
00:58:17,712 --> 00:58:21,472
first I would recommend maybe for viewers
who are just not really very familiar

1046
00:58:21,532 --> 00:58:24,552
with the AI risk, you know, maybe this
is maybe one of the first videos actually

1047
00:58:24,612 --> 00:58:28,452
about it.
And second with for people who

1048
00:58:28,512 --> 00:58:32,492
maybe even agree,
but they're not actually n-

1049
00:58:32,552 --> 00:58:34,832
for both sets of people,
like concretely what do you recommend?

1050
00:58:34,892 --> 00:58:37,262
Like, after watching this video,
what do you recommend they do?

1051
00:58:40,712 --> 00:58:44,332
So I mean, I have,
I have very clear ideas about what needs

1052
00:58:44,392 --> 00:58:48,152
done, and what needs to be done
is the mobilization of mass

1053
00:58:48,232 --> 00:58:50,781
participation direct action. Um,

1054
00:58:52,172 --> 00:58:55,712
if you're not at, if-
if you're just learning about this idea

1055
00:58:55,752 --> 00:58:59,732
about AI risk for the first time or you're

1056
00:58:59,812 --> 00:59:03,031
not quite, you don't quite understand
or you're not quite convinced

1057
00:59:03,041 --> 00:59:06,322
that this actually is...

1058
00:59:07,472 --> 00:59:11,332
that this is a real risk, um,

1059
00:59:12,272 --> 00:59:12,762
probably

1060
00:59:13,752 --> 00:59:17,532
you, Samuel, can probably put a- a-
a good, put together a good compilation

1061
00:59:17,572 --> 00:59:21,332
of resources for people to, you know,
take that, that

1062
00:59:21,372 --> 00:59:23,912
next step. Off the top of my head,

1063
00:59:24,012 --> 00:59:26,912
um, I would suggest

1064
00:59:27,672 --> 00:59:31,132
definitely check out stopai.info.

1065
00:59:31,152 --> 00:59:35,112
There's a presentation there, um,
which does, it's a, it's a recording

1066
00:59:35,172 --> 00:59:37,682
of one of the public presentations that,
uh,

1067
00:59:38,572 --> 00:59:42,242
we've done to mobilize people in-person,
and so it

1068
00:59:42,272 --> 00:59:46,172
does tr- uh,
treat this question in the first part

1069
00:59:46,212 --> 00:59:50,192
of the presentation. There's, uh,
there's some, part of

1070
00:59:50,212 --> 00:59:54,092
it's given by, uh,
a Professor David Krueger,

1071
00:59:54,152 --> 00:59:57,962
who is a aI, who's, who's a professor in,

1072
00:59:58,312 --> 01:00:01,452
uh, at FAI. And, um,

1073
01:00:03,112 --> 01:00:06,832
you can also check out, um, you know,
there's a great YouTube

1074
01:00:06,892 --> 01:00:10,522
channel For Humanity by John Sherman
that's got a lot

1075
01:00:10,552 --> 01:00:13,892
of AI risk, uh, material on it. Uh,

1076
01:00:14,512 --> 01:00:17,652
Roman Yampolskiy is, uh,
a guy who's spoken out

1077
01:00:19,552 --> 01:00:23,172
very broadly in public
and has been on a number of,

1078
01:00:23,312 --> 01:00:25,282
um, high-reach podcasts,

1079
01:00:26,952 --> 01:00:30,392
and I think these are, these
are compelling arguments.

1080
01:00:30,472 --> 01:00:30,532
So

1081
01:00:31,672 --> 01:00:35,632
for the people that, that do re-
are past that point and recognize

1082
01:00:35,652 --> 01:00:39,402
that this is actually a real risk
and it's urgent and it

1083
01:00:39,432 --> 01:00:43,028
threatens the lives of those we love-The

1084
01:00:43,188 --> 01:00:44,948
absolutely important thing is to join

1085
01:00:45,928 --> 01:00:49,058
these, the,
the movement to stop it immediately.

1086
01:00:49,908 --> 01:00:53,408
And so there are a number of ways
that you can do that,

1087
01:00:53,488 --> 01:00:57,408
Uh,
almost everyone can give some kind of

1088
01:00:57,448 --> 01:01:00,968
of donation to,
to keep the mobilization work of Stop AI

1089
01:01:01,508 --> 01:01:04,808
going, uh, and increase it. Um,

1090
01:01:05,708 --> 01:01:09,068
each person has, you know,
unique talents and skills

1091
01:01:09,108 --> 01:01:11,948
So there's a join form, uh, stopai.

1092
01:01:12,128 --> 01:01:16,108
on, stopai.info. And if you sign up,
then an organizer

1093
01:01:16,148 --> 01:01:19,768
will get in touch with you
and see what the best way

1094
01:01:20,368 --> 01:01:23,088
to, to, to further that movement is.

1095
01:01:23,378 --> 01:01:26,578
And specifically, Stop AI's goals
are to permanently

1096
01:01:26,688 --> 01:01:29,488
ban the development of super intelligence.

1097
01:01:29,528 --> 01:01:30,538
And to, to, and

1098
01:01:31,388 --> 01:01:34,748
pursuant to that,
to mobilize a mass non-violent

1099
01:01:35,168 --> 01:01:39,097
direct action movement of people who
are willing to stand on this

1100
01:01:39,128 --> 01:01:42,948
conviction and dem- and, and, and
are not willing, not satisfied

1101
01:01:43,008 --> 01:01:46,978
to, to say, to sit back
and watch the race go on for another

1102
01:01:47,068 --> 01:01:51,028
day, but are actually able
and willing to take direct action

1103
01:01:51,068 --> 01:01:52,328
to stop it immediately.

1104
01:01:53,188 --> 01:01:56,968
And so,
if you're not able to participate in the

1105
01:01:57,028 --> 01:02:00,808
direct action, there
are many support roles that are

1106
01:02:00,908 --> 01:02:04,148
necessary to facilitate finding those
people who

1107
01:02:04,158 --> 01:02:08,108
are. And so, um,

1108
01:02:08,148 --> 01:02:10,418
you know, financial support
is an essential part of

1109
01:02:10,448 --> 01:02:14,088
that. Yeah, so check out stopai.info,

1110
01:02:14,108 --> 01:02:15,327
definitely.

1111
01:02:15,408 --> 01:02:15,608
Got it.

1112
01:02:15,628 --> 01:02:17,128
That's where I would send people.

1113
01:02:17,168 --> 01:02:20,448
Got it. Thank you for your answer.
I will definitely put the link to your

1114
01:02:20,488 --> 01:02:23,608
you know, in the description. And-

1115
01:02:23,668 --> 01:02:27,438
Yeah.
And if anyone wants to personally get in

1116
01:02:27,448 --> 01:02:30,268
also in- invite that and would,
would be welcome

1117
01:02:30,308 --> 01:02:33,948
to, you know-

1118
01:02:34,028 --> 01:02:34,118
Got it.

1119
01:02:34,118 --> 01:02:37,208
... help encourage and, and,
and mobilize people.

1120
01:02:37,288 --> 01:02:40,568
Got it, got it. I think that was it for,
like, questions from my side.

1121
01:02:40,608 --> 01:02:43,548
Is there anything else which you would,
you know, either like to ask me or just

1122
01:02:43,588 --> 01:02:46,568
bring up on your own?
Anything else you feel, you know,

1123
01:02:46,648 --> 01:02:48,188
important, this should be, you know,
put in

1124
01:02:49,128 --> 01:02:53,068
this video.
Like is there anything like that or,

1125
01:02:53,248 --> 01:02:53,608
Uh-

1126
01:02:53,618 --> 01:02:54,988
... end this?

1127
01:02:55,008 --> 01:02:58,257
Yeah, I think, I think it's like, uh, I w-
I was very...

1128
01:02:58,288 --> 01:03:02,078
It was very interesting to see this
interview with, um,

1129
01:03:02,108 --> 01:03:05,948
Dennis, who's on hunger strike in, uh,
London right now,

1130
01:03:06,008 --> 01:03:09,968
with Max Tegmark who is, uh,
has some reputation in the field

1131
01:03:10,068 --> 01:03:11,328
of, you know, making

1132
01:03:12,408 --> 01:03:16,348
the public aware of AI risk
and has also got credentials.

1133
01:03:16,428 --> 01:03:20,068
And what I would like to see,
and I think is very

1134
01:03:20,108 --> 01:03:24,078
important, is for more people
that have that kind of credential or

1135
01:03:24,168 --> 01:03:27,018
that kind of influence to speak out
publicly

1136
01:03:27,888 --> 01:03:28,728
on the urgency

1137
01:03:29,568 --> 01:03:31,948
and acknowledge that this is an emergency.

1138
01:03:31,988 --> 01:03:35,488
That the fact that we don't know how close
the edge

1139
01:03:35,568 --> 01:03:39,268
is, the fact that there
is so much momentum, inertia in

1140
01:03:39,308 --> 01:03:39,948
society,

1141
01:03:41,308 --> 01:03:45,268
that maneuvering out of the range of this
danger will take time and

1142
01:03:45,288 --> 01:03:48,928
is a massive task. And we don't know
if we have that time,

1143
01:03:50,048 --> 01:03:53,268
and that the consequences of failing
are so large

1144
01:03:54,348 --> 01:03:54,568
that

1145
01:03:55,408 --> 01:03:56,808
all this together is an emer- fo-

1146
01:03:57,788 --> 01:04:01,208
Let's just, let's just be honest
and tell the truth to the public.

1147
01:04:01,288 --> 01:04:02,757
We're in an emergency right now

1148
01:04:03,668 --> 01:04:06,408
and we need to act like it's an emergency.

1149
01:04:07,888 --> 01:04:08,248
And

1150
01:04:09,648 --> 01:04:13,348
fundamentally, this
is a question of each of our's right

1151
01:04:13,768 --> 01:04:17,728
to li- to life, to live. And we need to

1152
01:04:17,768 --> 01:04:18,968
take action today

1153
01:04:20,468 --> 01:04:23,008
to defend that right
and to stop this race immediately.

1154
01:04:23,048 --> 01:04:26,808
It's our right,
it's our power collectively

1155
01:04:28,008 --> 01:04:31,828
and it's our responsibility. And so let's,
let's not le- you

1156
01:04:31,888 --> 01:04:33,477
know, the whole future's riding on this.

1157
01:04:33,508 --> 01:04:36,788
Let's not, let's not let 'em down.

1158
01:04:37,688 --> 01:04:41,388
Got it. Got it, got it. Uh, yeah,
I just wanted to

1159
01:04:41,428 --> 01:04:43,668
again,
like thank you for doing this podcast.

1160
01:04:43,708 --> 01:04:47,348
You know, in spite of, you know,
you literally being on, you know,

1161
01:04:47,368 --> 01:04:50,548
hunger strike, you know, deteriorated,
you know, physical strength, you know,

1162
01:04:50,588 --> 01:04:53,708
mental strength. In spite of that,
you came here, you know,

1163
01:04:53,748 --> 01:04:57,708
gave such a coherent interview
that I hope would be useful to

1164
01:04:57,728 --> 01:04:59,378
all the viewers. Uh-

1165
01:04:59,528 --> 01:04:59,928
Yeah.

1166
01:04:59,938 --> 01:05:03,868
... of this.
Like I just really wanted to appreciate,

1167
01:05:03,928 --> 01:05:05,648
actually did this and yeah-

1168
01:05:05,708 --> 01:05:09,458
Yeah, absolutely.
Thank you so much for putting in the

1169
01:05:09,508 --> 01:05:13,498
there. That's something
that I need to put more effort into myself

1170
01:05:13,508 --> 01:05:15,878
the word out there, so...

1171
01:05:16,008 --> 01:05:16,148
Yeah.

1172
01:05:16,168 --> 01:05:16,668
Yeah.

1173
01:05:16,688 --> 01:05:17,158
Got it. Got it.

1174
01:05:17,168 --> 01:05:18,828
It's absolutely necessary.

1175
01:05:18,868 --> 01:05:19,128
Yes.

1176
01:05:19,168 --> 01:05:21,808
Thank you, Samuel. It was good talking.

1177
01:05:21,848 --> 01:05:22,368
Cool. Yeah.

1178
01:05:22,378 --> 01:05:24,448
Let's talk again soon.

1179
01:05:24,528 --> 01:05:25,968
Yes, sure, sure, sure, sure.