WEBVTT 00:02.440 --> 00:06.420 I can't, I can't live with myself if I let this 00:06.480 --> 00:09.830 society sleepwalk into disaster, right? 00:12.180 --> 00:15.620 I can't live with myself if I don't do everything in my power 00:16.500 --> 00:19.930 to ensure there's a world for my children. The important thing... 00:19.940 --> 00:23.240 I mean, I go out on the street, I've talked to, I don't know, hundreds, 00:23.280 --> 00:26.560 of people. Many of them, many of them immediately say, "Oh, yes, 00:26.600 --> 00:29.260 Yeah, they're gonna, they're gonna end up killing us all." ... 00:29.300 --> 00:33.280 So for example, in the, in the, in the Birmingham campaign, 00:33.290 --> 00:36.629 that I mentioned earlier, 5,000 schoolchildren were arrested 00:37.600 --> 00:41.260 and spent some time in jail. But it 00:41.320 --> 00:41.900 changed 00:42.820 --> 00:45.080 the public perception of an entire country. 00:45.140 --> 00:48.640 It got attention at the level of the national government, 00:48.680 --> 00:50.040 the introduction of the Civil Rights Act. 00:50.080 --> 00:50.980 That the 00:51.900 --> 00:55.180 core founding principle of StopAI is that 00:55.240 --> 00:57.160 superintelligence is inherently 00:58.100 --> 01:01.540 too dangerous of a technology ever to be built. 01:01.550 --> 01:05.379 This is not, um... this is in contrast to the position of, for 01:05.420 --> 01:08.640 example, Pause AI, which says it should not be built until it 01:08.700 --> 01:12.500 safely. As, as to why Yudkowsky is not on hunger 01:12.560 --> 01:16.010 strike, that's a good question. People can find many different reasons not 01:16.220 --> 01:22.480 things. 01:24.000 --> 01:27.780 Uh, hello, everyone. Uh, my name is Samuel Shadrack. 01:27.920 --> 01:31.800 Uh, with me, I have Guido, uh, who 01:31.840 --> 01:32.440 has been 01:33.280 --> 01:35.620 protesting against creation of 01:35.660 --> 01:39.300 superintelligence. He is on hunger strike. 01:39.420 --> 01:43.340 Uh, I'm just going to ask him some questions, 01:43.380 --> 01:46.850 more broadly, you know, about the issue of, you know, 01:46.860 --> 01:48.960 Why is this a big deal? What can we do about it? 01:48.970 --> 01:52.560 And so on. Uh, 01:53.120 --> 01:56.640 could you maybe just please start by introducing yourself, you know, like 01:57.060 --> 02:01.020 what's your background? How did you, you know, come to this decision where you 02:01.060 --> 02:03.050 are right now of, you know, doing a hunger strike? 02:03.060 --> 02:06.720 Like, where did this begin, and how did that turn into where we 02:06.740 --> 02:07.900 now? 02:07.920 --> 02:11.020 Yeah. Thank you for having me on. 02:12.100 --> 02:15.020 Um, yeah, my name is Guido Reichstadter. 02:15.060 --> 02:18.790 I'm 45 years old. Uh, I'm a father of 02:19.000 --> 02:20.380 two children. 02:21.260 --> 02:25.020 And I first really became aware of the 02:25.040 --> 02:29.000 potential to build artificial general intelligence, 02:29.140 --> 02:32.840 uh, back in university when I was studying math and 02:32.880 --> 02:36.180 physics. I was probably around 20 years old. 02:36.260 --> 02:36.860 And, um, 02:38.120 --> 02:38.900 you know, immediately 02:40.320 --> 02:41.980 I felt that this would be 02:43.840 --> 02:47.240 probably the most dangerous technology that humanity had ever 02:47.300 --> 02:51.040 tried to build. And, uh, just at the 02:51.180 --> 02:55.080 time, the, the people 02:55.160 --> 02:59.120 around me, the information that I could get seemed to point 02:59.180 --> 03:03.010 towards this becoming possible in the second half of the 21st 03:03.040 --> 03:06.989 century. Um, and I kind of just put it out 03:07.020 --> 03:08.160 of my mind really, 03:09.140 --> 03:12.860 until, uh, ChatGPT was 03:12.880 --> 03:14.100 released. And 03:14.900 --> 03:18.340 that kind of served as a wake-up call, uh, that this 03:18.420 --> 03:22.230 process was going a lot faster than I expected it to go. 03:22.260 --> 03:26.170 Not that I thought ChatGPT itself was 03:26.260 --> 03:29.340 there, right? But just what it indicated about the 03:29.400 --> 03:32.020 underlying trend. 03:32.120 --> 03:33.920 And 03:34.720 --> 03:37.340 I remember, um, 03:41.080 --> 03:43.580 beginning to look for more information. 03:43.680 --> 03:46.720 I found this, uh... I found out that people had 03:46.760 --> 03:50.660 been... people had much shorter timelines, even back in 03:50.760 --> 03:53.650 2000. Specifically, uh, 03:53.760 --> 03:57.360 um, there was a paper that was written in the late '90s by Hans 03:57.380 --> 04:00.840 Moravec where he looked at the exponential, uh, 04:00.920 --> 04:03.269 trend in increasing computational power 04:04.200 --> 04:07.880 and used a model of some 04:08.840 --> 04:11.620 neurons to make an estimate of what 04:11.680 --> 04:14.670 the, like, in a... by analogy, what kind... 04:14.680 --> 04:17.600 what, h- how much computation the human brain does. 04:17.640 --> 04:21.500 And said this trend will intersect the computational power of the human brain 04:21.540 --> 04:25.219 sometime in the 2020s. And 04:26.980 --> 04:30.720 that should be a warning sign, right? 04:30.740 --> 04:34.160 That it's becoming, it's potentially becoming 04:34.240 --> 04:35.260 possible now 04:36.340 --> 04:40.220 to create hardware that can do effectively 04:40.230 --> 04:43.800 what a human brain does, even if it's not wired up correctly yet, 04:43.880 --> 04:45.180 right? 04:46.320 --> 04:50.180 Never before in, you know, the history of humanity has it been 04:50.240 --> 04:53.900 to build a machine that could do anything 04:53.960 --> 04:57.920 like the computational ability of the human 04:57.940 --> 05:00.860 brain, and that's becoming possible now. 05:01.940 --> 05:05.840 And so, yeah, um, it's... I go- it 05:05.880 --> 05:09.420 got me worried when I saw Chat GP- GPT come out, seeing the 05:09.460 --> 05:13.440 continuing trends, seeing the billions and billions of dollars in 05:13.500 --> 05:17.180 capital pouring into the field and greater and greater numbers of 05:17.220 --> 05:20.840 researchers being devoted to cracking that problem. 05:20.880 --> 05:23.100 Like, I'm 45. Never in my life 05:24.160 --> 05:26.400 has there been so much 05:27.040 --> 05:30.680 energy, talent, resources, 05:30.740 --> 05:34.630 capital, excitement behind building 05:34.660 --> 05:38.510 this technology. And I feel that 05:38.540 --> 05:42.220 we are in a condition of imminent danger right now because we don't 05:42.260 --> 05:46.220 know where the line is. We don't know how far we 05:46.280 --> 05:48.030 have to go to cross 05:49.940 --> 05:50.460 the barrier 05:51.380 --> 05:54.460 to something that's as generally capable as a human 05:54.500 --> 05:58.140 mind. And we also know that there's a lot of momentum, a lot of 05:58.280 --> 06:02.172 inertia in society.... and that if we want 06:02.212 --> 06:05.952 to have the option to stop this process, we have to 06:06.052 --> 06:08.192 do... we have to change the way the world works, 06:08.992 --> 06:12.052 and that takes time and effort and energy. 06:12.092 --> 06:15.932 So it's kind of like the situation where we're on the Titanic, 06:16.052 --> 06:19.332 huge ship with a lot of momentum and inertia, 06:20.152 --> 06:22.112 and we see an iceberg in front of us, 06:24.132 --> 06:27.532 and we don't know if we are able to maneuver the 06:27.572 --> 06:29.842 ship out of the path of that iceberg in time. 06:31.992 --> 06:35.352 And if so, uh, you know, if it's, if that's not the case, 06:35.432 --> 06:36.752 right now. It's like, 06:38.212 --> 06:38.952 if you're in a car 06:40.572 --> 06:41.412 driving downhill 06:42.832 --> 06:46.362 and you have no brakes, your brakes are gone, you're in an 06:46.412 --> 06:50.162 emergency well before you pass over the edge of that 06:50.192 --> 06:50.532 cliff. 06:51.692 --> 06:54.982 That's the situation which the world is in right now. 06:55.012 --> 06:58.112 There is an uncontrolled race to artificial 06:58.152 --> 07:01.952 superintelligence, which we have good reason to suspect would 07:01.992 --> 07:04.112 have catastrophic or 07:06.092 --> 07:08.492 extinction-level consequences for the human race- 07:08.572 --> 07:09.582 Okay. 07:09.632 --> 07:13.432 ... and we have no effective mechanism to stop 07:13.672 --> 07:16.702 currently. So, um, 07:17.852 --> 07:21.612 in 2024, I put my career on hold. Uh, I was a jeweler 07:21.672 --> 07:25.652 in Miami. I started a business with my ex-wife, uh, 07:25.672 --> 07:28.262 years working at that, and, 07:28.332 --> 07:32.232 um, moved to San Francisco 07:32.852 --> 07:34.032 to try and 07:35.412 --> 07:38.952 put some brakes on this (laughs) runaway car, 07:39.032 --> 07:40.262 right? Um, 07:41.072 --> 07:44.172 I landed October... I think it was 17th. 07:44.232 --> 07:46.912 On the 21st, I was sitting down in front of OpenAI 07:47.952 --> 07:50.292 having chained their, their door shut, 07:50.412 --> 07:54.332 right? I believe we all have a right to stop 07:54.342 --> 07:56.722 this race that threatens our lives. 07:56.772 --> 07:57.042 And 07:58.632 --> 08:01.322 in the absence of government action, which is... 08:01.372 --> 08:05.352 has not been forthcoming, we have a responsibility to stop it now 08:05.432 --> 08:09.272 precaution, out of the need to prevent 08:09.552 --> 08:12.932 the risk of devastating consequences to people we love. 08:13.012 --> 08:14.032 So, um, 08:16.512 --> 08:18.542 yeah, I, I don't think there's any... 08:18.592 --> 08:22.172 Any day is a bad day to take direct action to stop this 08:22.232 --> 08:26.212 race. And in fact, we need to see a lot, lot more of it, and that's, 08:26.252 --> 08:26.442 that's 08:27.372 --> 08:31.252 one of the prime motivations for me going on this hunger strike, 08:31.392 --> 08:31.832 is 08:33.052 --> 08:36.892 partly to make a public demand of these companies to stop 08:36.912 --> 08:40.222 putting my life and the life of my children and our 08:40.232 --> 08:41.562 community in danger, 08:44.872 --> 08:47.852 to do everything in their power, which is far greater than 08:47.892 --> 08:51.771 mine, to work towards an end to the global 08:51.872 --> 08:53.362 race which is necessary 08:54.832 --> 08:57.012 for our safety, right? 08:57.072 --> 08:57.642 Yeah. Um- 08:57.752 --> 09:01.602 We need a globally binding treaty which prohibits the development of 09:01.612 --> 09:03.612 this extremely dangerous technology, 09:05.332 --> 09:07.072 and to fulfill their duty to 09:07.992 --> 09:11.912 do everything they can to ensure that our society 09:11.952 --> 09:14.992 is made aware of the urgent danger it's being put 09:15.032 --> 09:18.092 in by this race and by the companies, like 09:18.152 --> 09:22.102 Anthropic, that are participating in it 09:22.132 --> 09:25.092 their responsibility while they're doing so. 09:25.192 --> 09:26.232 It's not enough to 09:27.771 --> 09:30.302 make nice, safety-sounding 09:30.712 --> 09:32.771 words, right? 09:32.832 --> 09:32.842 Mm-hmm. 09:32.842 --> 09:36.612 You've got... If, if this company is 09:38.692 --> 09:41.032 going to put the lives of everyone on Earth 09:42.312 --> 09:44.282 at risk... 09:46.372 --> 09:49.932 They have their reasons. I don't agree with them, 09:49.992 --> 09:51.332 but regardless, 09:52.972 --> 09:56.652 they have a responsibility to make sure that the people whose 09:56.692 --> 10:00.612 lives they're putting at risk understand that their lives are being put 10:00.632 --> 10:01.212 at risk, 10:02.472 --> 10:06.372 and this is not satisfied by giving a few speeches or a few 10:06.472 --> 10:09.562 podcasts here and there, you know? 10:09.592 --> 10:13.282 It's not satisfied until society is made aware of this 10:13.312 --> 10:16.932 urgent threat. So 10:16.972 --> 10:20.252 finally, if Dario Amodei, the CEO of Anthropic, 10:20.312 --> 10:24.292 that, I'm asking him to meet me face-to-face, 10:24.372 --> 10:28.332 being, and explain why, and 10:28.392 --> 10:31.552 I feel that that's not an unreasonable request. 10:31.732 --> 10:35.232 I feel that my life has value just as much as 10:35.312 --> 10:36.052 his. 10:37.852 --> 10:38.612 Got it. 10:38.672 --> 10:40.531 The lives of my children- 10:40.612 --> 10:41.182 Yeah, got it. Um- 10:41.182 --> 10:42.182 ... they have a right to life. 10:43.252 --> 10:46.012 Yeah, everything you said was super useful, but yeah, 10:46.052 --> 10:48.832 interrupt. I just, I just want to go to the next question. 10:48.912 --> 10:52.832 Uh, because you mentioned specifically 10:52.872 --> 10:56.252 know, just a disclaimer, I have never visited, but obviously, 10:56.312 --> 10:59.392 Twitter, you know, I see the stuff that gets posted online. 10:59.472 --> 11:03.392 Uh, in general, like, you know, if you ask me personally, 11:03.452 --> 11:07.372 like, for me, it makes sense, like, you know, political action makes 11:07.432 --> 11:11.271 sense. Like, I assume, okay, you know, look, religious leaders have, you know, 11:11.292 --> 11:14.852 influence over society. You know, politicians have, you know, influence over 11:14.912 --> 11:18.672 society. You know, politics actually matters, and, like, 11:18.712 --> 11:20.832 social movements actually matter. 11:20.872 --> 11:23.031 Like, it is not just money that matters. 11:23.052 --> 11:25.652 Like, it's not just, you know, billionaires that matter, you know, 11:25.692 --> 11:29.312 matters. But however, when I look at, you know, the 11:29.392 --> 11:33.112 types of, you know, ideas that are spread in San Francisco, the sense 11:33.271 --> 11:37.112 I get is that, you know, if you're building technology, 11:37.152 --> 11:40.572 like, a tech billionaire, like, that's the only high-status thing to do. 11:40.592 --> 11:42.852 Like, if you do that, you will get respect. 11:42.912 --> 11:46.472 If you, you know, become someone like us who's, you know, 11:46.512 --> 11:49.912 and, you know, start a social movement and so on, like, you know, people in San 11:49.992 --> 11:53.812 Francisco don't respect you. And, like, there's 11:53.872 --> 11:57.812 very clear, like, status dynamics going on here, 11:57.872 --> 12:01.752 even in the minds of people who are inside that bubble, which, 12:01.792 --> 12:04.812 that, "Oh, if I, you know, join these people who are protesting, 12:04.852 --> 12:07.972 are going to look at me as lower status, you know, people who won't respect me," so 12:08.031 --> 12:12.004 on. So-Yeah, I just wanted to ask you, like, what 12:12.024 --> 12:15.664 are your opinions on, you know, how, uh, like, status, social 12:15.724 --> 12:18.373 approval, respect, like, how do these things work in San Francisco? 12:18.373 --> 12:19.234 (laughs) 12:19.384 --> 12:23.114 Like, how do they work currently and be, you know, what can we actually done to, 12:23.164 --> 12:25.144 you know, change that? 12:27.544 --> 12:31.284 Yes. I'm primarily concerned with 12:31.324 --> 12:34.984 respecting myself. I don't really care 12:35.064 --> 12:38.864 about other people's respect. I have to live my life in a 12:38.884 --> 12:41.144 way which I can respect 12:43.244 --> 12:46.644 my own actions in honoring what I believe is 12:46.704 --> 12:48.564 true. And 12:50.144 --> 12:50.524 I think it's 12:51.884 --> 12:55.164 these- s- this thing about status is a pernicious 12:55.244 --> 12:57.524 trap, right? 12:57.644 --> 13:01.594 Um, you know, I- it's- it reminds me of 13:01.664 --> 13:04.674 a story, I don't know if it's true or not, 13:04.704 --> 13:07.664 but, you know, people- people will 13:07.704 --> 13:09.794 willingly, um, 13:12.184 --> 13:15.904 lose their lives rather than lose the respect of their- their peers, 13:15.984 --> 13:16.234 right? 13:16.624 --> 13:17.104 Mm-hmm. 13:17.144 --> 13:20.314 And in this case, we might lose the entire world out of some 13:20.364 --> 13:21.424 foolish... 13:22.704 --> 13:26.604 It's like, I- I- I wonder why people are so concerned about the respect 13:26.644 --> 13:30.514 of others. It makes me wonder. It seems that 13:30.524 --> 13:34.464 it- it's a reflection of a certain self-doubt. 13:35.764 --> 13:39.614 At any rate, it- it's- it doesn't stop me from doing what 13:39.684 --> 13:41.524 I'm doing. Um, 13:43.084 --> 13:46.124 and this is, uh, uh, there's an inter- an interesting point that you brought up. 13:46.184 --> 13:47.544 So people in San Francisco, 13:48.404 --> 13:51.944 it's a- it's a metropolitan area of almost eight 13:52.624 --> 13:53.534 Mm-hmm. 13:53.534 --> 13:55.284 Um, it's very hard to generalize, right? 13:55.844 --> 13:56.624 Yeah. 13:56.684 --> 13:59.944 So there are many people in San Francisco who 14:01.364 --> 14:02.684 recognize that 14:04.284 --> 14:08.124 this AI race is a race to annihilation, and they have no- they 14:08.144 --> 14:11.984 want nothing to do with it, right? The important thing, I mean, 14:12.024 --> 14:15.644 street, I- I've talked to, I don't know, hundreds, thousands of 14:15.684 --> 14:19.404 people. Many of them- many of them immediately say, "Oh yes, 14:19.424 --> 14:22.784 thing. Yeah, they're gonna- they're gonna end up killing us all." Many 14:22.824 --> 14:24.734 understand this. It's- it's not like, um, 14:25.704 --> 14:28.004 some, uh, esoteric 14:28.104 --> 14:31.864 idea. Um, the important thing 14:31.984 --> 14:33.444 is not to 14:34.524 --> 14:34.784 act 14:35.884 --> 14:39.684 based on the expectations of others but to do what is right, to do 14:39.724 --> 14:43.644 what's necessary, and to find other people and 14:43.664 --> 14:46.924 encourage them to do what's right and necessary. 14:47.004 --> 14:50.724 And that's what, uh, you know, this is- there's 14:50.764 --> 14:54.694 a- there's a saying that all- all truth goes through several 14:54.744 --> 14:58.654 stages. First it's ridiculed, then it's opposed, and finally 14:58.704 --> 15:01.474 it's- it's accepted as self-evident, right? 15:01.584 --> 15:02.084 Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. 15:02.144 --> 15:03.684 So there's always going to be this kind of 15:04.504 --> 15:08.214 opposition, but this is not actually about 15:11.344 --> 15:14.984 necessarily even responding. 15:16.724 --> 15:19.124 The primary thing at least is not responding to the opposition. 15:19.144 --> 15:22.804 The primary thing is doing what is correct and- 15:23.044 --> 15:23.394 Mm-hmm. 15:23.394 --> 15:26.444 ... with the understanding that we have that this race puts 15:27.264 --> 15:29.384 our lives in danger. 15:30.584 --> 15:34.533 That's enough. E- even certainty is not 15:34.544 --> 15:38.504 necessary. You wouldn't- I wouldn't let anyone play Russian 15:38.544 --> 15:42.364 children, right? And this is just a risk of death. 15:42.384 --> 15:45.784 We're talking about risk of destroying the entire world, right? 15:45.944 --> 15:49.884 We have rights. We have a right to life, and we 15:49.904 --> 15:53.884 have a right to live unafraid that someone's gonna 15:53.924 --> 15:57.644 destroy the world. So we need to 15:57.804 --> 16:01.744 stand on those rights and defend them because we're actually 16:01.764 --> 16:03.364 up for each other, right? 16:04.704 --> 16:07.384 It's not just our rights we're standing up for. 16:07.424 --> 16:11.384 We can only have these- we only benefit individually from these 16:11.404 --> 16:14.844 rights if we're willing to defend them collectively, because 16:14.884 --> 16:18.124 individually we can't- we can't defend them. 16:18.144 --> 16:22.024 And so this is- this is the thing which, uh, trying to help, um, 16:23.324 --> 16:24.444 people to do. 16:24.584 --> 16:28.084 Got it. Got it. That makes sense, and I am completely supportive of your 16:28.104 --> 16:31.624 efforts. Uh, maybe then the next thing I wanted to 16:31.764 --> 16:35.044 ask is, you know, like, how do we actually, you know, 16:35.064 --> 16:37.223 How do we build this into a social movement? 16:37.324 --> 16:37.704 Uh, 16:38.984 --> 16:42.834 so one thing you actually previously talked to me about, you know, in private, 16:42.864 --> 16:46.604 but I also wondered if they, you know, be, uh, out there in public, which is you 16:46.644 --> 16:50.504 said, like, in order to get more people, you know, in the movement, you 16:50.544 --> 16:54.004 know, against AI, you know, to be actually protesting, 16:54.064 --> 16:57.524 something about it, uh, you said what is important is 16:57.684 --> 17:01.424 not, "Okay, here's a list of technical arguments for, 17:01.484 --> 17:03.844 risk," but what is actually needed is, like, courage. 17:03.884 --> 17:06.964 It's, like, seeing, you know, your friends and people around you, 17:07.003 --> 17:10.824 actually demonstrating that courage and actually, you know, 17:10.924 --> 17:14.863 Uh, like, that intuitively seemed to make a lot of 17:14.944 --> 17:18.904 sense to me. Uh, I just wanted to sort of get more of your 17:18.924 --> 17:21.604 Like, why do you believe this is true? 17:21.664 --> 17:25.404 Do you have some existing examples of this, you know, either in the AI or AI 17:25.424 --> 17:28.144 risk space or, you know, even outside of it? 17:28.184 --> 17:30.084 Yeah. 17:30.144 --> 17:33.524 No, I- I mean I think this is absolutely essential, 17:33.624 --> 17:36.264 right? I mean, it's not the wh- it's not the whole thing. 17:36.304 --> 17:36.774 There are many 17:37.664 --> 17:40.624 interlocking pieces, uh, eh, in- among which 17:42.024 --> 17:45.004 the technical arguments, the awareness 17:46.304 --> 17:48.084 also contribute, right? 17:48.764 --> 17:51.884 But, um, 17:54.244 --> 17:57.964 what in- in my estimation has heretofore been 17:58.004 --> 18:01.304 lacking has been a willingness to act 18:02.204 --> 18:04.904 consistently with the meaning of an 18:04.924 --> 18:08.384 emergency. Even a- a willingness to 18:08.424 --> 18:12.384 acknowledge that there is an emergency on the part of people who 18:12.424 --> 18:13.644 traditionally been concerned 18:14.584 --> 18:18.318 and aware of the threat that-... 18:18.328 --> 18:19.048 AI poses 18:20.288 --> 18:23.068 with regards to extinction. 18:24.267 --> 18:24.588 And 18:27.808 --> 18:29.628 there is a lot of, um, 18:31.227 --> 18:33.967 there's kind of a spirit of uncertainty, 18:34.048 --> 18:36.507 fear, doubt, 18:36.568 --> 18:39.628 self-doubt, and all of this is 18:41.408 --> 18:43.467 totally 18:44.368 --> 18:44.707 fatal 18:45.868 --> 18:49.207 to the creation of a vital en- engaged 18:49.267 --> 18:51.588 movement, right? 18:52.928 --> 18:56.747 We potentially have very little time in which to 18:56.788 --> 19:00.447 accomplish a very large goal, which is 19:00.548 --> 19:03.808 moving the entire world out of the path 19:03.947 --> 19:07.467 of this extremely dangerous technology it's on course 19:07.528 --> 19:10.578 to, to build. And 19:13.528 --> 19:14.888 I have seen the failure of 19:16.408 --> 19:17.967 reformist projects on 19:18.967 --> 19:22.088 social issues for 40 years, on climate change, for example, 19:23.328 --> 19:26.467 with the result that now very devastating, even catastrophic 19:26.848 --> 19:30.717 effects are essentially locked in. 19:30.768 --> 19:34.598 We don't have 40 years to fail on climate change, uh, 19:34.648 --> 19:38.027 on, on AI. We don't have 40 years to fail on 19:38.088 --> 19:40.098 AI. And 19:42.308 --> 19:44.447 we need to act 19:45.908 --> 19:49.828 decisively. If a m- if a, if a man 19:49.868 --> 19:53.648 is putting my life in danger and the lives of my children, I'm not 19:53.658 --> 19:57.007 satisfied merely to ask him to stop 19:57.928 --> 20:01.908 or to ask the government to stop and wait and wait 20:03.447 --> 20:05.868 and wait for a response that may not ever come. 20:05.888 --> 20:07.178 Got it. I- 20:07.178 --> 20:09.687 It's our responsibility to take leadership. 20:09.697 --> 20:12.997 ... thing doesn't look very good right at the 20:12.997 --> 20:16.888 To take direct action. We have the right to end this threat 20:16.987 --> 20:19.467 today, right now. 20:20.428 --> 20:21.308 This is our right. 20:22.707 --> 20:26.467 And the only way that it's going to possibly be done is by 20:26.507 --> 20:27.627 beginning to act 20:28.627 --> 20:30.137 with courage, with conviction 20:31.568 --> 20:35.487 on that, on that right, to take direct non-violent action 20:36.388 --> 20:36.987 to stop 20:38.727 --> 20:42.687 the development towards superintelligence, to ta- which could, is 20:42.727 --> 20:43.507 as simple as 20:45.507 --> 20:48.668 non-violently occupying the companies that are doing 20:48.707 --> 20:52.608 it, to lead government, because government is 20:52.687 --> 20:53.868 not leading on this. 20:56.447 --> 20:59.888 Go, the responsibility for our safety 20:59.928 --> 21:03.467 government, but they are abdicating that responsibility. 21:05.148 --> 21:09.027 Where does the responsibility go? It doesn't vanish. It's on us still. 21:09.048 --> 21:13.027 It always was on us. We delegated it to government, 21:13.068 --> 21:16.227 job. It's our responsibility to lead 21:16.368 --> 21:20.108 government, to occupy the offices of 21:20.168 --> 21:22.007 Congress if necessary- 21:23.308 --> 21:23.318 We do. 21:23.318 --> 21:24.668 ... to compel them to act. 21:25.648 --> 21:28.467 And we can do this. This is, this has been done by 21:29.687 --> 21:33.447 th- this has been done by social movements 21:33.487 --> 21:34.628 over again. 21:35.668 --> 21:35.987 And 21:38.268 --> 21:40.808 I'm, I'm inspired particularly by this. 21:42.348 --> 21:46.247 There is a, an episode in the civil rights movement in 21:46.288 --> 21:49.027 the Birmingham campaign, 21:50.027 --> 21:50.338 where 21:52.048 --> 21:53.368 5,000 school children 21:54.348 --> 21:54.987 went to jail 21:55.888 --> 21:58.638 for defying the segregation laws in Birmingham, 21:58.668 --> 22:00.568 Alabama. 22:03.987 --> 22:04.027 Yeah. 22:04.048 --> 22:06.888 They filled every jail in Birmingham, they filled the state 22:07.707 --> 22:10.987 fair, the animal pens where they, they held animals at the state 22:11.048 --> 22:12.768 fair, 22:13.808 --> 22:15.928 and this happened over several weeks. 22:15.947 --> 22:19.608 And by the end of it, the chief of police threw his hands in the 22:19.648 --> 22:23.467 said, "There's no way to keep a lid on this 22:23.527 --> 22:24.207 gone." 22:25.027 --> 22:28.928 This is when radical political change happens, when people 22:28.937 --> 22:29.768 lose their fear 22:31.288 --> 22:35.128 and they're willing to act. For me, I'm acting out of love 22:35.308 --> 22:39.148 for my children. If I f- if I have to 22:39.187 --> 22:42.408 face the choice between going on hunger strike 22:45.248 --> 22:48.348 and raising awareness on this issue and mobilizing people to 22:48.358 --> 22:52.187 action or sitting back and, and living a comfortable 22:52.248 --> 22:56.027 life and letting my children's lives be threatened, I'll take the first 22:56.088 --> 22:59.878 one any day of the week. I've been arrested a couple of 22:59.928 --> 23:03.128 times. I'm willing to go to jail. 23:04.207 --> 23:08.047 I'm willing, you know, to do whatever it non-violently takes to 23:08.088 --> 23:11.388 my children are safe, because in my mind there's nothing more 23:11.428 --> 23:13.328 important. 23:13.727 --> 23:14.068 Yeah. 23:14.078 --> 23:17.808 And when people, when people tap into that love, the 23:17.888 --> 23:19.368 fear of, of sanction 23:21.527 --> 23:24.568 becomes much less effective in constraining our 23:24.608 --> 23:26.257 behavior. 23:26.257 --> 23:26.257 Yeah. 23:26.328 --> 23:30.138 I'm sure that many of the people that are concerned about this, if 23:30.168 --> 23:33.428 the, if they, if they knew that simply by 23:35.348 --> 23:38.947 sitting down in front of the AI companies they would stop this race, many would 23:38.987 --> 23:41.868 take that. It's the right thing to do. 23:41.908 --> 23:44.568 The only reason they don't is because they don't think it's going to 23:44.628 --> 23:46.418 work. 23:48.388 --> 23:52.277 And what we need for people to do is to center less on what they think 23:52.308 --> 23:55.848 to work and more on what is right for them to 23:55.908 --> 23:56.957 do, because 23:58.687 --> 24:01.868 paradoxically that's why it hasn't 24:01.928 --> 24:05.788 happened. That's why we haven't stopped this race, 24:05.848 --> 24:09.768 have not en mass led society 24:09.808 --> 24:13.067 and said, "This thing is wrong and it needs to stop." 24:13.187 --> 24:13.447 Yeah. 24:14.908 --> 24:17.428 Got it, got it. No, that is a good answer. 24:17.547 --> 24:21.328 Uh, I wanted to ask you, uh, so there are multiple 24:21.547 --> 24:23.027 groups that are trying to do... 24:23.248 --> 24:26.947 ... you know, public advocacy around the idea of 24:27.008 --> 24:30.437 risk from superintelligence. Uh, this could include starting with, you 24:30.488 --> 24:34.268 know, uh, Mary's latest book, you know, Eliezer Yudkowsky and Nate Sawyer 24:34.368 --> 24:38.008 is, they published this book, you know, If Anyone Mutes It, Everyone Dies. 24:38.088 --> 24:41.268 Uh, there is pause AI which was started by, 24:41.288 --> 24:44.428 uh, Meandetsma and Holly 24:44.628 --> 24:48.508 Elmore. Uh, there's, you know, the AI Risk Network by John Sherman. 24:48.568 --> 24:52.488 There's, you know, Liron Shapira who has his own channel 24:52.548 --> 24:55.888 debates. Like, there are lots of people who 24:55.928 --> 24:59.888 need to go to the public. Uh, but I get the sense that they're all 24:59.947 --> 25:03.528 working independently. Uh, so maybe I just wanted to ask you, like, 25:03.628 --> 25:07.466 A, what is something you think like, you know, all these public advocacy groups 25:07.528 --> 25:10.338 agree on, and B, what is, you know, something... 25:10.348 --> 25:14.288 or what other things they disagree on? 25:16.588 --> 25:20.508 Yeah. That's a good question. I'm not terribly familiar with what 25:20.528 --> 25:23.707 e- ev- every other group is doing. I can speak 25:23.748 --> 25:27.138 primarily, uh, for myself, what I'm doing, and 25:27.168 --> 25:30.808 the, the, the work that I've done in support of Stop 25:30.868 --> 25:32.488 AI. Um, 25:33.748 --> 25:37.628 in terms of goals, there is, um... I think there is a 25:37.708 --> 25:40.028 common- a commonality in that 25:40.947 --> 25:42.488 I believe all of these groups 25:43.828 --> 25:45.528 would agree that 25:47.228 --> 25:50.068 the race which is going on now to build superintelligence 25:50.348 --> 25:54.187 is... poses an extreme threat to all of our 25:55.368 --> 25:59.268 safety and wellbeing and our lives, and should 26:00.467 --> 26:02.728 stop now. 26:04.888 --> 26:07.947 I don't think that's... I don't think that would be controversial 26:08.748 --> 26:11.048 (laughs) among any of those groups. 26:11.148 --> 26:15.088 Um, the primary difference 26:15.098 --> 26:17.628 that I see, there are 26:17.748 --> 26:21.628 two. One is kind of in 26:21.687 --> 26:22.368 the goals, 26:23.668 --> 26:26.918 the ultimate goals of those groups, and 26:27.687 --> 26:30.788 one is in the methods which they see 26:30.928 --> 26:31.947 as, 26:32.748 --> 26:34.548 uh, necessary or 26:35.548 --> 26:39.528 effective. Um, in terms of goals, I'd say 26:39.588 --> 26:40.868 that there is a clear 26:41.708 --> 26:45.077 distinction between Stop AI and the other groups which is 26:45.108 --> 26:48.528 that the core 26:48.588 --> 26:51.788 founding principle of Stop AI is that 26:51.828 --> 26:55.467 superintelligence is inherently 26:55.568 --> 26:58.668 too dangerous of a technology ever to be 26:58.687 --> 27:02.608 built. This is not, um... this is in 27:02.687 --> 27:06.648 contrast to the position of, for example, pause AI which says 27:07.248 --> 27:10.428 it should not be built until it can be done safely. 27:11.808 --> 27:15.748 And from Stop AI's position, 27:15.828 --> 27:16.447 there is 27:18.208 --> 27:22.168 no- It's in- it's inherently a contradiction in terms. 27:22.228 --> 27:25.508 This technology cannot ever be done safely 27:26.428 --> 27:30.388 because unlike o- every other technology we've deployed, 27:30.428 --> 27:31.368 been able to test 27:31.828 --> 27:35.668 repeatedly... prototypes 27:37.048 --> 27:40.808 and refine and iterate through engineering. 27:40.848 --> 27:41.118 And 27:41.967 --> 27:45.947 with superintelligence, there is the very real risk that you don't get a 27:45.988 --> 27:49.467 second chance. If you build a system which is 27:49.608 --> 27:51.708 capable enough to take 27:52.548 --> 27:54.668 control of the world and humanity's 27:54.708 --> 27:58.357 fate, you may not get a second chance 27:58.648 --> 28:02.108 at... you may not get a chance to shut that off, 28:02.168 --> 28:04.408 You may have just locked yourself into 28:05.308 --> 28:07.788 inevitable loss of control. And 28:10.687 --> 28:13.388 I don't trust any theory which 28:14.608 --> 28:17.588 gives predictions about the behavior of a system like this. 28:17.608 --> 28:21.528 It's not enough to have theory. It must be tested through 28:21.568 --> 28:23.628 experiment. And this is just not 28:24.967 --> 28:28.808 a regime, the creation of superintelligence, 28:29.348 --> 28:32.108 experimentation. Um, 28:33.268 --> 28:37.187 you know, we... there are airplanes 28:37.228 --> 28:39.588 that leave the ground based on theory 28:40.467 --> 28:43.487 and there are people that get in those airplanes, 28:43.588 --> 28:47.538 pilots. I'm not willing for my 28:47.588 --> 28:50.148 family, against our 28:50.188 --> 28:53.428 will, to be the test subjects 28:54.208 --> 28:58.078 of the AI company's superintelligence experiments, and I 28:58.108 --> 29:02.098 don't think anyone should. So, that's primarily the difference in goals. 29:02.128 --> 29:05.578 There is a s- a- an ultimate goal of stopping 29:05.578 --> 29:09.418 superintelligence permanently, which means creating a world in 29:09.467 --> 29:13.328 which it is possible to do so indefinitely, that we have the 29:13.338 --> 29:15.228 social institutions, the 29:16.268 --> 29:20.197 relations among people which no longer 29:20.248 --> 29:23.728 produce this race and this unstoppable 29:23.788 --> 29:26.248 drive to build ever more powerful AI 29:26.288 --> 29:30.108 systems. And in terms of how, how we stop 29:30.148 --> 29:33.928 that race, like in the near term, there is also like a- a strategic difference 29:34.467 --> 29:34.828 in that 29:36.447 --> 29:40.338 I personally, and it's generally the, the 29:41.428 --> 29:43.318 approach of Stop AI, that 29:45.388 --> 29:48.008 the urgency of this situation demands direct 29:48.048 --> 29:49.467 action, 29:51.268 --> 29:52.308 that the 29:53.228 --> 29:56.508 institution, the... It's a- it's a- it's an estimation that the 29:56.568 --> 30:00.348 institutions of government and of economy, that the 30:00.388 --> 30:02.498 rules of the system as they are set up now 30:05.388 --> 30:09.148 will produce, with overwhelming likelihood, 30:09.248 --> 30:12.638 um, the bad outcome here. And that 30:14.388 --> 30:16.378 there is a phenomenon in social... 30:16.428 --> 30:20.208 in, in this- in the history of, of world society which is able to 30:20.228 --> 30:23.128 produce very rapid changes in government 30:23.168 --> 30:27.043 policy.And in fact, it does so about every two or three 30:27.063 --> 30:30.873 years somewhere in the world. And this is mass parta- participation 30:30.984 --> 30:34.464 civil disobedience. This is when people en 30:34.533 --> 30:38.244 masse, in large numbers, refuse to 30:38.323 --> 30:41.303 allow society to continue as 30:41.343 --> 30:45.283 normal until their demand is met. And 30:45.363 --> 30:49.184 sometimes this is a, a, a demand for a change in the law, 30:49.204 --> 30:51.573 demand for a change in the government. 30:51.603 --> 30:54.623 And like I said, a movement like this succeeds in achieving 30:54.644 --> 30:58.323 in the world about every two or three years. This is a f-... 30:58.333 --> 31:02.184 This is not a one-off thing. It is a social phenomenon, 31:02.224 --> 31:02.543 which is 31:03.684 --> 31:06.323 nearly... It was essentially universal. 31:06.404 --> 31:10.303 It's... It is a way for societies to rapidly 31:10.343 --> 31:14.264 change direction under extreme duress, which we 31:14.363 --> 31:15.934 are in now, and which 31:16.904 --> 31:19.823 we are increasingly approaching, 31:19.924 --> 31:23.603 right? So- so this is the approach 31:23.684 --> 31:27.004 which StopAI has chosen. It is to take direct 31:27.103 --> 31:30.704 action as the catalyst and as the motive 31:30.764 --> 31:34.033 force of building an assertive, vital 31:34.464 --> 31:38.363 social movement, which is not content to go 31:38.384 --> 31:40.884 the reformist route and 31:42.123 --> 31:42.643 parlay 31:45.664 --> 31:48.783 potentially decades of time that we don't have. 31:48.803 --> 31:49.464 Yeah. 31:49.504 --> 31:52.343 Right. So sometimes you, you have to go outside the box. 31:52.363 --> 31:55.343 You have to break the rules. That's okay, right? 31:55.464 --> 31:59.083 Uh, you know, I'm, I'm going to court this, uh, next month 31:59.643 --> 32:03.404 in a case where I obstructed the operation of 32:03.464 --> 32:07.224 OpenAI, which is one of the leading companies 32:08.004 --> 32:08.283 And 32:09.384 --> 32:13.283 we're asserting and defending this right of the public to take 32:13.323 --> 32:17.164 this kind of action, that it's... We are asserting that it 32:17.204 --> 32:20.893 that it is morally justified. And there is this 32:20.944 --> 32:24.474 concept in law called the defense of necessity. 32:24.524 --> 32:24.853 This is 32:26.303 --> 32:27.373 an idea that goes back 32:29.724 --> 32:33.333 probably thousands of years. I'm sure there's something like it in, in, 32:34.143 --> 32:37.504 legal systems around the world. It's the understanding that sometimes it's 32:37.514 --> 32:40.053 necessary to break some laws for... 32:40.083 --> 32:43.103 To prevent a greater harm. Um, just 32:43.184 --> 32:46.063 like you would break the window of a, of a car 32:47.004 --> 32:48.823 to rescue a child trapped inside, 32:49.724 --> 32:53.264 right? There's no other alternative to save 32:53.904 --> 32:54.333 Yeah. 32:54.504 --> 32:56.803 That's the case we're in right now. 32:58.143 --> 33:01.184 We don't know how close these companies 33:01.283 --> 33:04.793 are from the next breakthrough, right? 33:04.803 --> 33:08.704 Remember, it was one big breakthrough in 2017 33:08.724 --> 33:10.684 the field, the transformer. 33:10.694 --> 33:10.694 Mm-hmm. 33:10.744 --> 33:13.934 Right now, there are hundreds, you know, hundreds of billions of dollars and 33:14.004 --> 33:15.592 thousands of the world's best engineers 33:16.563 --> 33:18.434 trying to make that next breakthrough. 33:18.484 --> 33:21.704 We don't know how, how close it is. And this 33:21.764 --> 33:25.634 uncertainty should not be cause for inaction. 33:25.643 --> 33:29.524 It should be cause for preventative, precautionary action, 33:29.563 --> 33:32.924 because the consequences are so large, right? 33:32.984 --> 33:33.853 Yeah, yeah, go ahead. 33:33.863 --> 33:34.524 So, yeah. 33:34.623 --> 33:37.293 Uh, yeah, I'm really sorry. I, I just, I just don't have- 33:37.303 --> 33:38.984 No, no worries. Go ahead. Do your, do your thing. 33:38.994 --> 33:41.583 No, no, I get it. You're... Everything you're saying 33:41.684 --> 33:45.504 Uh, I wanted to dive more specifically into 33:45.603 --> 33:49.024 disagreement, uh, because, you know, I think it seems useful to actually 33:49.603 --> 33:51.524 get people on board, you know, doing things. 33:51.623 --> 33:55.603 Uh, so the specific argument you mentioned, 33:55.623 --> 33:59.004 you know, we don't get, you know, like 50 tries to build superintelligence. 33:59.043 --> 34:02.063 You know, the first time you do it, if you do it wrong, you know, 34:02.083 --> 34:06.073 Like, you can't really experiment with this and, 34:06.083 --> 34:10.004 over many years. Like, this is a pretty popular argument 34:10.083 --> 34:13.844 by Eliezer Yudkowsky. I think he's also completely on board with 34:13.884 --> 34:17.804 this specific argument, uh, that, you know, we can't experiment 34:17.844 --> 34:21.444 with it. You know, we are not going to solve, you know, safety 34:21.504 --> 34:25.344 alignment in, you know, five years, 10 years, probably in 20 years. 34:25.464 --> 34:29.043 Uh, maybe I would just ask, like, uh, how 34:29.163 --> 34:33.103 familiar are you with, you know, Eliezer Yudkowsky's views 34:33.123 --> 34:36.993 on this issue, uh, considering, of course, that he's one of the founders of, you 34:37.043 --> 34:40.933 know, AI risk as a field? And, yeah, I 34:41.004 --> 34:44.543 mean, like, where exact... Like, since, you know, he actually 34:44.603 --> 34:48.424 agrees with you on this core point, like, does that mean you both just, 34:48.444 --> 34:52.183 like, agree on everything? Like, where exactly is the disagreement coming? 34:52.223 --> 34:55.964 You know, why is, you know, Yudkowsky not sitting on a hunger strike 34:56.043 --> 34:58.464 like, you know, you are? 34:59.783 --> 35:03.054 Yeah, yeah, that's a good question. Um, I- I'm not terri... 35:03.054 --> 35:06.524 Uh, I'm honestly, I'm not terribly familiar with, uh, 35:06.644 --> 35:10.144 uh, Eliezer Yudkowsky's, um, uh, 35:10.264 --> 35:14.134 work. Um, I don't think I've... I may, I've read maybe a, a 35:14.183 --> 35:16.564 couple of papers or something. Um, 35:18.144 --> 35:21.084 so I'm not really sure what his position is. 35:21.144 --> 35:24.904 There are some things that he's said publicly that I do disagree 35:24.964 --> 35:27.524 with and, uh, 35:29.104 --> 35:32.964 I think, um, I think I disagree on others, but I'm 35:33.004 --> 35:35.493 not, I'm not sure. So, 35:38.084 --> 35:41.944 I'm not sure where he stands on this issue of alignment 35:42.004 --> 35:45.194 or safety. It seems, it seems to be... 35:45.243 --> 35:49.104 Like, what I'm... My position, you know, is that this 35:49.163 --> 35:53.104 should never be done. And it must, it must never 35:53.203 --> 35:56.604 be done, and we have an obligation to not do it, 35:56.703 --> 35:59.264 stop the people that are doing it. 35:59.364 --> 36:00.834 Mm-hmm. 36:00.834 --> 36:03.984 Um, which s- seems in contradiction to the idea 36:04.044 --> 36:07.384 that one can align a superintelligence 36:09.783 --> 36:13.723 a priori, right? By, by, by ex- by theory. 36:13.743 --> 36:14.604 Mm-hmm. 36:14.703 --> 36:16.624 Also, the, the alignment of, 36:17.484 --> 36:20.644 of such a system is deeply problematic in terms 36:20.723 --> 36:21.654 of, 36:21.764 --> 36:25.816 um...What 36:25.856 --> 36:29.516 goals is it being pointed to? Also, the 36:29.576 --> 36:33.386 idea that such a s- the idea that such a, a 36:33.516 --> 36:37.376 capable, self-reflecting, self-improving system, 36:37.476 --> 36:37.756 um, 36:39.776 --> 36:43.616 s- would, would be faithful to any goal which 36:43.676 --> 36:45.556 is externally, 36:46.996 --> 36:50.696 uh, imposed or structured into it seems 36:51.316 --> 36:52.556 also very suspect. 36:53.596 --> 36:57.236 So I- I- I believe that the- the 36:57.316 --> 37:01.176 concept of alignment in itself is very, 37:01.276 --> 37:02.766 um, misleading 37:03.796 --> 37:06.636 in the sense that it may serve the function of 37:07.936 --> 37:10.856 causing people to be less concerned 37:11.696 --> 37:15.076 about the development of super intelligence. 37:15.176 --> 37:19.136 That there's- there's a natural human tendency to- 37:19.316 --> 37:22.776 want to have to exert one's self 37:22.836 --> 37:26.696 beyond one's normal affairs. And if people 37:27.156 --> 37:30.896 can feel that this problem's being solved for them by 37:30.956 --> 37:31.536 someone else, 37:32.536 --> 37:35.276 it's a very reassuring kind of, um, 37:36.376 --> 37:38.976 story to tell oneself, which excuses 37:40.016 --> 37:40.756 taking action 37:42.356 --> 37:44.696 yourself to stop it. 37:44.796 --> 37:47.536 So, um, 37:49.236 --> 37:53.126 I think there's- there's also the- there's also, um, 37:54.276 --> 37:54.336 a, um 37:55.216 --> 37:59.156 ... something that's come to my attention 37:59.936 --> 38:01.376 by, uh, 38:02.436 --> 38:06.296 Yudkowsky about the value, the relative value of 38:06.336 --> 38:08.276 human life and 38:10.156 --> 38:13.556 putative, um, 38:15.716 --> 38:16.776 super intelligences, 38:18.576 --> 38:21.666 which is that the sacrifice of the existence of humanity 38:22.516 --> 38:22.996 would be 38:24.316 --> 38:24.916 acceptable 38:26.256 --> 38:28.396 in order to bring into existence 38:29.516 --> 38:32.496 a more morally valuable super 38:32.536 --> 38:34.776 intelligence, which 38:36.436 --> 38:39.056 I categorically, fundamentally disagree 38:39.096 --> 38:42.276 with. Um, 38:43.976 --> 38:44.296 and 38:46.516 --> 38:50.336 ... I don't think this ever can 38:50.476 --> 38:54.296 be or should be done safely. And this 38:54.356 --> 38:55.586 is- this is- this is, 38:56.876 --> 39:00.736 like, a f- this is a- a fundamental motivation for the work 39:00.796 --> 39:04.656 that I do. As- as to 39:04.696 --> 39:07.556 why, uh, Yudkowsky is not on hunger strike. 39:07.596 --> 39:11.456 That's a good question. People can find many different reasons not 39:11.525 --> 39:15.436 do things. Anyways, was that good or was there any part you, 39:15.676 --> 39:16.196 uh, wanna cover more? 39:16.206 --> 39:20.016 No, that is a really good answer. Uh, maybe I 39:20.056 --> 39:23.896 should put it this way. Uh, so ha- I'm assuming you've seen, 39:23.936 --> 39:27.025 like, the statement by, you know, Center for AI Safety, Dan Hendricks, 39:27.036 --> 39:30.996 like, uh, mitigating risk of extinction of AI 39:31.096 --> 39:33.936 and it was signed by, you know, a whole number of people. 39:33.946 --> 39:37.886 And I think that has actually, you know, moved- pushed the movement 39:37.996 --> 39:41.516 forward in, like, bringing this consensus that, okay, look, 39:41.576 --> 39:44.936 know, high credentialed, important, you know, knowledgeable people actually do 39:44.996 --> 39:48.986 agree with this. I wonder if there's value in doing a similar 39:49.056 --> 39:52.736 statement, you know, just even among the, let's say, groups who are protesting 39:52.776 --> 39:56.656 right now or involved in public advocacy that, you know, 39:56.696 --> 40:00.016 look, here is a core statement that, you know, we all do agree on. 40:00.036 --> 40:02.776 Like, you know, we might have, you know, certain various disagreements of our own, 40:02.796 --> 40:06.716 and you know, that's fine, but can we at least, you know, like, 40:06.736 --> 40:09.676 some consensus-building. Like, you know, here is a statement that we all agree on. 40:09.696 --> 40:13.655 Like, do you think s- like, such a statement, you know, 40:13.706 --> 40:15.836 Do you have opinions on, you know, what the exact statement should 40:15.896 --> 40:18.356 be? 40:19.676 --> 40:20.226 Um ... 40:23.876 --> 40:24.296 hm. 40:25.916 --> 40:29.906 Maybe could be valuable. Um, I think the- the first 40:29.936 --> 40:33.796 statement was very valuable in the sense that it provided a reference 40:33.836 --> 40:37.656 point for the public. It, um, and provides, 40:37.716 --> 40:40.556 right? It's- it's very- 40:41.836 --> 40:45.716 it's very useful if you're- when you're mobilizing people to take 40:45.756 --> 40:49.716 to something like that and show that there are, 40:49.756 --> 40:51.616 you know, respected, credentialed 40:52.436 --> 40:56.316 authorities who accept this as 40:56.456 --> 41:00.436 a- as a real risk. And this is, for me at least, this is the 41:00.476 --> 41:03.426 primary value in a statement like that. 41:03.476 --> 41:03.996 It's that 41:04.936 --> 41:08.896 it enables and it facilitates public outreach. 41:09.016 --> 41:09.286 Um, 41:11.236 --> 41:13.896 uh, a similar statement, g- getting, 41:14.916 --> 41:18.876 uh, all these groups on board, uh, I- I don't 41:18.916 --> 41:22.476 think it could hurt per se. Um, except 41:22.656 --> 41:26.576 insofar that it- if it- if 41:26.636 --> 41:26.686 it 41:27.776 --> 41:30.636 obfuscates the- the larger issue of 41:31.856 --> 41:33.596 ... 41:36.356 --> 41:39.896 for example, Stop AI w- does not want to give the 41:39.916 --> 41:43.736 impression that it agrees that super intelligence can ever be 41:43.776 --> 41:47.536 built safely, which is the stated position of a lot of 41:47.576 --> 41:51.556 other- these other groups. I think we all can agree that the- 41:53.256 --> 41:56.896 should end now, and the difference is that I think Stop 41:56.956 --> 41:57.336 AI 41:58.536 --> 42:01.986 acts as though it must end now, and we're 42:02.016 --> 42:05.996 encouraging other people to- to take that action, because if 42:06.056 --> 42:09.356 it must end now and if the companies are 42:09.376 --> 42:12.996 not ending it and the government's not ending it, then we 42:13.116 --> 42:16.396 must act, and this is the- this is the core thing. 42:16.416 --> 42:19.916 It's simply not enough to write a letter to 42:19.956 --> 42:23.836 your representative or to call your representative 42:24.576 --> 42:28.506 and another day goes by and we get closer 42:28.516 --> 42:31.706 we get closer to this point of no return where we don't know where it 42:31.776 --> 42:35.638 is. We-People who understand this risk, and this 42:35.688 --> 42:37.677 is- goes for the authorities that signed that letter, 42:39.208 --> 42:43.188 what would be much more useful is for them to go 42:43.228 --> 42:45.068 farther in that sa- in that letter. 42:45.128 --> 42:48.807 Rather than saying it is merely a risk that should 42:50.868 --> 42:54.638 merit some precaution, to actually state, 42:54.638 --> 42:57.368 "We are now, given the circumstances, in an 42:57.388 --> 43:01.258 emergency." And to even go farther, that, 43:01.288 --> 43:05.108 to say that, "Given the ina- inaction by our 43:05.148 --> 43:09.038 government, non-violent direct action is necessary and 43:09.048 --> 43:12.718 justified," this would be incredibly useful in mobilizing 43:12.748 --> 43:16.688 people. And this is, from my point of view, the only real 43:16.748 --> 43:20.448 game in town. There's not going to be the political will 43:20.508 --> 43:24.158 mobilized, strident movement making 43:24.168 --> 43:26.488 demands for an immediate end to this 43:26.508 --> 43:30.268 race. And from my point of view, the most important thing 43:30.328 --> 43:33.268 is what actually assists 43:33.368 --> 43:35.288 in creating that 43:35.328 --> 43:37.968 movement. 43:38.148 --> 43:40.588 Got it. Got it, got it. That makes sense. 43:40.688 --> 43:44.108 Uh, yeah, I think I then wanted to move to a 43:44.148 --> 43:48.108 question, uh, which is, again, coming back to, you know, 43:48.148 --> 43:52.028 the movement? I wanted to ask about funding 43:52.048 --> 43:54.688 So, like, you know, this is something I can imagine, and, you know, 43:54.728 --> 43:55.608 or disagree, but, 43:56.868 --> 44:00.428 like, uh, I can imagine a person who has, you know, a tech 44:00.508 --> 44:03.568 job, they broadly agree with the arguments for 44:03.628 --> 44:07.608 risk, but they're like, "You look, you know, I have, you know, dependents. 44:07.668 --> 44:10.608 I need to make a certain amount of money to, you know, sustain myself, to sustain 44:10.668 --> 44:14.418 people around me. And, you know, if I just come and protest, you know, 44:14.468 --> 44:18.028 there's no money in that. You know, it's just financially, 44:18.048 --> 44:21.948 bad for me." So, I do think it makes sense for, 44:21.988 --> 44:25.248 like, social movements like this to figure out a 44:25.348 --> 44:29.268 Uh, do you have a sense of, like, how that funding can be 44:29.888 --> 44:33.228 raised? Like, would that be primarily, you know, through donations? 44:33.268 --> 44:36.568 Could that be, you know... And by the way, I don't have a strong opinion, you know, 44:36.588 --> 44:39.098 which of these would actually work, but, like, I'm just asking your opinion, you 44:39.148 --> 44:42.408 know? Would that be donations? Could that be, you know, let's say, you know, 44:42.468 --> 44:44.968 a YouTube channel and you run ads on it? 44:45.008 --> 44:48.148 Could that be, you know, you provide consultancy to other groups, 44:48.188 --> 44:50.488 on your actual knowledge expertise you have accumulated? 44:50.528 --> 44:54.448 Like, do you have a sense of, like, how you could actually get 44:54.488 --> 44:56.068 funding to, you know, scale up the 44:56.108 --> 44:58.688 movement? 44:59.868 --> 45:02.888 Yeah, I have, I have a general, a general idea. 45:02.988 --> 45:03.248 Um, 45:04.948 --> 45:05.288 like, 45:06.548 --> 45:10.128 the- this has been done in the past, right? 45:10.888 --> 45:12.248 Um, 45:13.088 --> 45:16.528 the- there have been many social movements in 45:16.568 --> 45:20.308 essentially member-supported. And I think the 45:20.328 --> 45:23.577 important thing is creating a movement which is worthy 45:24.208 --> 45:24.718 of support 45:25.768 --> 45:29.418 and which people ha- can have confidence and 45:29.468 --> 45:29.768 faith 45:31.728 --> 45:32.548 in its ability, 45:33.508 --> 45:36.688 its potential ability, to accomplish these goals. 45:36.708 --> 45:36.857 Okay. 45:37.368 --> 45:41.208 And so there's a, you know, there are, there are literally 45:41.328 --> 45:44.448 millions and tens of millions of people that are concerned about 45:45.528 --> 45:48.868 where this is all going, and some of them are very deeply 45:48.908 --> 45:51.108 concerned. And like you said, 45:52.108 --> 45:54.357 there's two, two sides to the example you brought up. 45:56.328 --> 45:59.748 One is, you can do a lot on a large scale 46:00.208 --> 46:01.688 if millions of people 46:02.988 --> 46:05.048 can be mobilized in support 46:06.108 --> 46:08.478 of a direct action 46:08.508 --> 46:11.638 movement. Millions of people times 46:13.208 --> 46:17.168 a dollar a month, 10 dollars a month, is millions of dollars, 46:17.208 --> 46:19.928 tens of millions of dollars, which can be deployed 46:20.808 --> 46:22.797 to mobilize people for direct action. 46:23.448 --> 46:25.768 So it's, in, in a very real sense, it's a problem of 46:25.808 --> 46:29.628 logistics. My experience with Stop AI is with a handful of 46:29.688 --> 46:33.188 organizers going out into the community through methods of direct 46:33.268 --> 46:35.088 face-to-face mobilization, 46:36.128 --> 46:36.468 and 46:38.468 --> 46:39.288 we have found 46:40.648 --> 46:43.778 several people, right? The, the largest action that 46:44.868 --> 46:48.728 has ever been done by Stop AI involved five people. 46:50.548 --> 46:54.228 It's not a, it's not a large number, but it's also the work of a very small 46:54.267 --> 46:58.068 of mobilizers. If this is systematized and 46:58.148 --> 46:58.738 organized 47:00.768 --> 47:03.878 with 100 mobilizers, I think it's very 47:04.468 --> 47:08.228 realistic to find that within society, you will find it, 47:08.268 --> 47:12.188 100 people to take direct action. Not everyone is gonna be 47:12.288 --> 47:16.228 like your software engineer who has, uh, you know, such a managerial 47:16.268 --> 47:19.348 position that it's very hard for them to 47:19.408 --> 47:23.328 make a very costly sacrifice. 47:23.348 --> 47:27.008 But there are many people who are able to do that, and it's a logistical 47:27.088 --> 47:31.028 question of finding them and mobilizing them and showing and 47:31.068 --> 47:34.868 encouraging them to stand up for their rights, which is what this is really, at a 47:34.908 --> 47:38.708 fundamental level, about. There's no guarantee 47:38.748 --> 47:42.108 rights is going to be free, right? It's often going to be very 47:42.148 --> 47:43.208 costly. 47:43.228 --> 47:43.508 Yeah. 47:43.578 --> 47:45.768 But we're also the inheritors 47:47.208 --> 47:51.148 of generations before us who made very costly sacrifices 47:51.228 --> 47:54.728 for our freedom and our rights. And so there's something that goes 47:54.768 --> 47:58.748 beyond the day-to-day material calculations, 47:58.828 --> 47:59.808 right? 47:59.848 --> 48:02.418 Yep. 48:02.668 --> 48:03.958 100 people, you know, 48:04.948 --> 48:08.668 in front of OpenAI, in front of the other AI companies pushing 48:08.948 --> 48:09.688 annihilation, 48:11.028 --> 48:14.968 would make much bigger headlines, would have a much bigger effect in, in 48:15.448 --> 48:18.258 galvanizing public opinion, and in... 48:19.508 --> 48:23.368 Excuse the, the noise. Okay, are you picking that 48:23.408 --> 48:24.188 up on the- 48:24.228 --> 48:24.528 Yeah, yeah- 48:24.608 --> 48:24.798 ... on your end? 48:24.798 --> 48:26.508 Your voice is clear, yes. 48:26.608 --> 48:30.328 Oh, okay. Yeah, there's some background noise. You know? 48:30.348 --> 48:34.008 But with millions of people in support, a movement could 48:34.068 --> 48:37.692 find...... thousands of people to take direct action. 48:37.732 --> 48:41.412 This is absolutely in the realm of th- the immediate present 48:41.432 --> 48:45.012 possibility. The conditions in society are such, it's 48:45.092 --> 48:46.852 simply a question of 48:49.252 --> 48:52.691 interfacing with society on a large enough surface 48:53.112 --> 48:57.092 to find those people and organize these actions. 48:57.102 --> 48:57.422 And 48:59.432 --> 49:02.732 this can have a transformative effect in unlocking the 49:02.752 --> 49:06.192 nonlinear potential of society to ch- change. 49:06.252 --> 49:10.212 So for, for example, in the, in the, in the Birmingham 49:10.252 --> 49:13.912 campaign, the Children's March that I mentioned earlier, 5,000 49:13.952 --> 49:15.752 schoolchildren were arrested 49:16.991 --> 49:17.652 and spent 49:18.712 --> 49:22.602 some time in jail. But it changed 49:23.772 --> 49:26.752 the public perception of an entire country. 49:26.762 --> 49:30.632 It got attention at the level of the national government, and it 49:30.672 --> 49:33.382 led directly to the introduction of the Civil Rights Act. 49:33.412 --> 49:36.462 It's not an understatement to say that the Civil Rights Act of 49:36.532 --> 49:40.002 1964 was a direct consequence of those 49:40.232 --> 49:44.122 5,000 schoolchildren standing up for their rights in 1963. 49:45.292 --> 49:48.442 And I believe that there is similarly a tipping point in this 49:48.452 --> 49:52.132 society, because you can look at 49:52.172 --> 49:55.962 society and see that not much is happening and then draw the conclusion 49:56.012 --> 49:59.582 that nobody is concerned. This is not the case. 49:59.582 --> 50:00.102 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 50:00.192 --> 50:03.312 Many, many, many people are deeply concerned. 50:03.322 --> 50:07.312 And I think you saw some evidence of this with the recent pushback on 50:07.372 --> 50:11.072 the attempt to impose a 10-year moratorium on AI regulation 50:11.712 --> 50:15.372 in the United States, which was killed largely as a result of public 50:15.412 --> 50:16.491 outcry. 50:16.502 --> 50:16.502 Yeah. 50:16.552 --> 50:20.442 Even people who aren't willing, because it's, uh, 50:20.512 --> 50:24.241 opinion, and people are hesitant to hold minority opinions 50:24.452 --> 50:27.052 often publicly. 50:28.532 --> 50:31.392 Even young people who are not willing to publicly acknowledge 50:32.372 --> 50:35.372 that they're worried about this extinction 50:35.412 --> 50:39.252 risk, I believe that in many, many people, 50:39.312 --> 50:43.112 maybe even most, there is an awareness that this technology does 50:43.152 --> 50:46.032 threat. And there is a, a kind of 50:46.092 --> 50:50.002 conflict, even in people who are ve- you 50:50.052 --> 50:53.992 know, might display the most outward bravado 50:54.032 --> 50:54.432 of it. 50:55.712 --> 50:59.491 And it's this, these kinds of very public actions, which 50:59.592 --> 51:03.312 in mass, in a representative, you know, that, that show a 51:03.332 --> 51:07.192 representative subsection of, of the population being 51:07.212 --> 51:09.392 willing to take this contrarian position, 51:10.872 --> 51:14.792 because of their conviction, which can strengthen 51:14.832 --> 51:18.761 in the heart of many, many people, to also 51:18.792 --> 51:22.112 gain the courage to say, "You know 51:22.172 --> 51:25.872 ra- you know what? I don't... This is, this is real. 51:25.971 --> 51:29.652 I don't need to stop denying it, and I've got a right to speak 51:29.752 --> 51:33.192 out, and I've got a right to demand that this situation 51:33.312 --> 51:36.602 end." And so this is part of the, the 51:36.792 --> 51:40.272 mechanism of change, which is not only theoretical. 51:40.312 --> 51:44.212 This is how social movements have changed and do change 51:44.272 --> 51:48.192 the direction a- of entire countries, you know, within a matter of 51:48.212 --> 51:49.252 days or weeks. 51:51.612 --> 51:53.361 So... 51:53.392 --> 51:55.932 Got it, got it, got it. That is a good answer. 51:56.052 --> 51:58.932 Uh, maybe then I'll just go to a really simple 51:58.952 --> 52:02.532 You know, uh, which day are you on 52:02.572 --> 52:06.072 currently? How long do you plan to, you know, continue this hunger strike? 52:06.112 --> 52:09.162 Like, just with the hunger strike specifically, 52:12.112 --> 52:15.032 Uh, yeah. Uh, today after I finish 52:15.852 --> 52:19.032 here, I'll be going out to Anthropic, and it will be the 16th 52:19.152 --> 52:23.112 day which I've been publicly in front of Anthropic. 52:23.172 --> 52:25.361 Mm-hmm. Yeah. 52:25.632 --> 52:29.511 Um, I s- I started, I- I started fasting the day before in 52:29.552 --> 52:33.432 be 17 days that I've gone without food, but 16 days as 52:33.492 --> 52:35.112 a public political act. 52:35.812 --> 52:35.822 Okay. 52:35.872 --> 52:36.212 And 52:37.172 --> 52:41.052 on the, on the first day that I went there, I delivered a 52:41.092 --> 52:43.752 letter to the security desk for Mr. 52:43.792 --> 52:45.412 Amodei, 52:46.952 --> 52:50.932 telling him... asking him 52:50.971 --> 52:54.711 to stop putting my lives, my life and the lives of my 52:54.752 --> 52:58.572 family in danger, which he's publicly acknowledged 52:58.612 --> 53:01.922 this race does. 53:02.552 --> 53:03.552 Asking him instead 53:04.432 --> 53:06.172 to use all his power 53:07.612 --> 53:09.792 to do everything in his ability 53:11.492 --> 53:15.372 to work for a stop to this race globally, which is 53:15.452 --> 53:19.172 the absolutely necessary condition for our survival, a 53:19.212 --> 53:23.192 global end, through government regulation, through international 53:23.212 --> 53:26.852 accord. And Anthropic and Mr. Amodei 53:26.892 --> 53:27.352 personally 53:29.212 --> 53:32.082 could have an immense effect in mobilizing 53:33.212 --> 53:37.092 the public will to demand such an accord. 53:38.572 --> 53:39.482 Thank you. 53:39.592 --> 53:43.402 Also, to fulfill the obligation to ensure that 53:43.452 --> 53:46.382 society is made aware of what's going on in these 53:46.412 --> 53:49.692 companies, to be made aware of the 53:49.732 --> 53:53.652 fact that Anthropic is 53:53.692 --> 53:56.612 contributing to this race, which poses 53:57.692 --> 54:01.132 potentially near-term risk of destruction of our entire 54:01.172 --> 54:02.812 society. 54:04.272 --> 54:08.092 And finally, if he's unwilling to do any of 54:08.132 --> 54:10.432 those things, to meet with me personally 54:11.452 --> 54:13.462 and explain why he feels the right 54:14.812 --> 54:18.632 to put my life, my children's lives, our entire society at 54:18.672 --> 54:22.652 risk. And I told him I'd be waiting outside 54:22.712 --> 54:23.192 his door 54:24.092 --> 54:26.832 for his answer, and that's my intention, to wait 54:27.632 --> 54:28.772 outside his doors 54:29.832 --> 54:32.752 until I'm answered. 54:35.212 --> 54:41.852 And-I'm 54:41.862 --> 54:42.742 also doing this 54:44.912 --> 54:48.872 to fulfill my responsibility to my children and the society 54:48.912 --> 54:52.872 that I'm a part of. I can't, I 54:52.932 --> 54:56.452 can't live with myself if I let this society 54:56.532 --> 55:00.022 sleepwalk into disaster, 55:00.072 --> 55:02.412 right? 55:03.352 --> 55:07.092 I can't live with myself if I don't do everything in 55:07.132 --> 55:07.702 my power 55:08.892 --> 55:09.492 to ensure 55:10.532 --> 55:13.791 there's a world for my children. 55:16.472 --> 55:19.932 And I think all of us that understand this risk have a similar 55:19.972 --> 55:23.672 responsibility, and it's up to each person to question 55:24.492 --> 55:24.792 about 55:26.612 --> 55:29.372 what they are able to do. Not what's 55:29.432 --> 55:33.392 convenient, not what would fit into their schedule, 55:33.432 --> 55:37.332 but what's actually necessary and what's actually right in 55:37.372 --> 55:40.212 this case. 55:42.092 --> 55:44.532 Yeah. Yeah. Got it. That is 55:45.812 --> 55:48.032 (laughs) yeah, something even I need to think more about. 55:48.272 --> 55:51.062 I really appreciate you giving this answer. 55:51.212 --> 55:51.932 Uh- 55:51.972 --> 55:55.352 And thank, thank you for joining in this conversation 55:55.612 --> 55:59.332 putting, you know, a bit of your time and convenience 56:02.792 --> 56:05.812 behind the greater, the greater good. 56:06.432 --> 56:06.622 Oh, yeah. 56:06.652 --> 56:06.892 Right? 56:06.902 --> 56:07.872 Oh, yeah. 56:08.232 --> 56:10.032 I didn't expect that, you know- 56:10.072 --> 56:10.082 Yeah. 56:10.092 --> 56:11.892 When I started this, I had no idea that 56:12.732 --> 56:16.212 this kind of response would, would happen, and here we are having this conversation 56:16.252 --> 56:16.512 now. 56:18.312 --> 56:22.252 Oh, yes. Yes. I completely believe with you on like, 56:22.292 --> 56:25.572 change is possible. You know, the first domino moves, 56:25.582 --> 56:28.852 and you know, before you, you know it, you know, thousands of people are actually 56:28.892 --> 56:32.882 doing something about it. So yes, I just want to be part of 56:32.932 --> 56:36.772 the broader movement, the broader, you know, effort to actually do something 56:36.832 --> 56:40.592 about this. And yeah, I definitely relate with you 56:40.712 --> 56:44.472 on the aspect of like, look, if I was not 56:44.592 --> 56:48.372 working on this, if I was just, you know, trying to lead a comfortable life, you 56:48.432 --> 56:52.032 know, just, you know, get a tech job, you know, have vacations, you 56:52.092 --> 56:55.592 know, have a partner, you know, do just fun things with my life, 56:55.632 --> 56:59.572 like, like I would dislike myself as a person, 56:59.612 --> 57:03.052 you know? I would be just unhappy doing that, 57:03.112 --> 57:06.032 actually done more and I chose not to, and like that was on me. 57:06.072 --> 57:09.812 Like, so like I actually completely resonate 57:09.872 --> 57:12.452 this sentiment of yours. Um- 57:12.472 --> 57:14.072 I mean, that was my lived experience. 57:14.132 --> 57:16.832 I, I, there came a point where I could no longer 57:17.012 --> 57:20.852 continue, you know, setting diamonds, which was what I was 57:20.932 --> 57:23.162 doing before, um, 57:24.052 --> 57:27.972 knowing that other people were making these decisions 57:29.632 --> 57:32.362 that were going to have these consequences for the people I 57:32.392 --> 57:35.892 love. That's what caused me 57:35.952 --> 57:38.042 to put this on hold and start doing 57:39.132 --> 57:41.622 what I think is necessary. 57:42.792 --> 57:46.572 Yeah. Got it. Uh, I just wanted to then end with like a 57:46.712 --> 57:50.332 final question, uh, just for viewers of this 57:50.372 --> 57:54.352 podcast. Like, uh, what is the, like, very concrete, you know, 57:54.392 --> 57:57.932 call to action? Like imagine, you know, this viewer o- of this podcast, you know, 57:58.012 --> 58:01.052 after this like they will spend, you know, maybe 10 minutes, 15 minutes actually 58:01.072 --> 58:04.892 doing the next step. Like, uh, what concretely would you 58:04.912 --> 58:08.372 ask them to do? Would you ask them to, you know, go watch a lecture, you know, 58:08.412 --> 58:10.632 a book? Would you ask them to, you know, email you? 58:10.712 --> 58:13.772 Uh, like just what concrete action would you 58:13.852 --> 58:16.452 Uh, I would maybe split it into two. 58:16.492 --> 58:16.732 So 58:17.712 --> 58:21.472 first I would recommend maybe for viewers who are just not really very familiar 58:21.532 --> 58:24.552 with the AI risk, you know, maybe this is maybe one of the first videos actually 58:24.612 --> 58:28.452 about it. And second with for people who 58:28.512 --> 58:32.492 maybe even agree, but they're not actually n- 58:32.552 --> 58:34.832 for both sets of people, like concretely what do you recommend? 58:34.892 --> 58:37.262 Like, after watching this video, what do you recommend they do? 58:40.712 --> 58:44.332 So I mean, I have, I have very clear ideas about what needs 58:44.392 --> 58:48.152 done, and what needs to be done is the mobilization of mass 58:48.232 --> 58:50.781 participation direct action. Um, 58:52.172 --> 58:55.712 if you're not at, if- if you're just learning about this idea 58:55.752 --> 58:59.732 about AI risk for the first time or you're 58:59.812 --> 59:03.031 not quite, you don't quite understand or you're not quite convinced 59:03.041 --> 59:06.322 that this actually is... 59:07.472 --> 59:11.332 that this is a real risk, um, 59:12.272 --> 59:12.762 probably 59:13.752 --> 59:17.532 you, Samuel, can probably put a- a- a good, put together a good compilation 59:17.572 --> 59:21.332 of resources for people to, you know, take that, that 59:21.372 --> 59:23.912 next step. Off the top of my head, 59:24.012 --> 59:26.912 um, I would suggest 59:27.672 --> 59:31.132 definitely check out stopai.info. 59:31.152 --> 59:35.112 There's a presentation there, um, which does, it's a, it's a recording 59:35.172 --> 59:37.682 of one of the public presentations that, uh, 59:38.572 --> 59:42.242 we've done to mobilize people in-person, and so it 59:42.272 --> 59:46.172 does tr- uh, treat this question in the first part 59:46.212 --> 59:50.192 of the presentation. There's, uh, there's some, part of 59:50.212 --> 59:54.092 it's given by, uh, a Professor David Krueger, 59:54.152 --> 59:57.962 who is a aI, who's, who's a professor in, 59:58.312 --> 01:00:01.452 uh, at FAI. And, um, 01:00:03.112 --> 01:00:06.832 you can also check out, um, you know, there's a great YouTube 01:00:06.892 --> 01:00:10.522 channel For Humanity by John Sherman that's got a lot 01:00:10.552 --> 01:00:13.892 of AI risk, uh, material on it. Uh, 01:00:14.512 --> 01:00:17.652 Roman Yampolskiy is, uh, a guy who's spoken out 01:00:19.552 --> 01:00:23.172 very broadly in public and has been on a number of, 01:00:23.312 --> 01:00:25.282 um, high-reach podcasts, 01:00:26.952 --> 01:00:30.392 and I think these are, these are compelling arguments. 01:00:30.472 --> 01:00:30.532 So 01:00:31.672 --> 01:00:35.632 for the people that, that do re- are past that point and recognize 01:00:35.652 --> 01:00:39.402 that this is actually a real risk and it's urgent and it 01:00:39.432 --> 01:00:43.028 threatens the lives of those we love-The 01:00:43.188 --> 01:00:44.948 absolutely important thing is to join 01:00:45.928 --> 01:00:49.058 these, the, the movement to stop it immediately. 01:00:49.908 --> 01:00:53.408 And so there are a number of ways that you can do that, 01:00:53.488 --> 01:00:57.408 Uh, almost everyone can give some kind of 01:00:57.448 --> 01:01:00.968 of donation to, to keep the mobilization work of Stop AI 01:01:01.508 --> 01:01:04.808 going, uh, and increase it. Um, 01:01:05.708 --> 01:01:09.068 each person has, you know, unique talents and skills 01:01:09.108 --> 01:01:11.948 So there's a join form, uh, stopai. 01:01:12.128 --> 01:01:16.108 on, stopai.info. And if you sign up, then an organizer 01:01:16.148 --> 01:01:19.768 will get in touch with you and see what the best way 01:01:20.368 --> 01:01:23.088 to, to, to further that movement is. 01:01:23.378 --> 01:01:26.578 And specifically, Stop AI's goals are to permanently 01:01:26.688 --> 01:01:29.488 ban the development of super intelligence. 01:01:29.528 --> 01:01:30.538 And to, to, and 01:01:31.388 --> 01:01:34.748 pursuant to that, to mobilize a mass non-violent 01:01:35.168 --> 01:01:39.097 direct action movement of people who are willing to stand on this 01:01:39.128 --> 01:01:42.948 conviction and dem- and, and, and are not willing, not satisfied 01:01:43.008 --> 01:01:46.978 to, to say, to sit back and watch the race go on for another 01:01:47.068 --> 01:01:51.028 day, but are actually able and willing to take direct action 01:01:51.068 --> 01:01:52.328 to stop it immediately. 01:01:53.188 --> 01:01:56.968 And so, if you're not able to participate in the 01:01:57.028 --> 01:02:00.808 direct action, there are many support roles that are 01:02:00.908 --> 01:02:04.148 necessary to facilitate finding those people who 01:02:04.158 --> 01:02:08.108 are. And so, um, 01:02:08.148 --> 01:02:10.418 you know, financial support is an essential part of 01:02:10.448 --> 01:02:14.088 that. Yeah, so check out stopai.info, 01:02:14.108 --> 01:02:15.327 definitely. 01:02:15.408 --> 01:02:15.608 Got it. 01:02:15.628 --> 01:02:17.128 That's where I would send people. 01:02:17.168 --> 01:02:20.448 Got it. Thank you for your answer. I will definitely put the link to your 01:02:20.488 --> 01:02:23.608 you know, in the description. And- 01:02:23.668 --> 01:02:27.438 Yeah. And if anyone wants to personally get in 01:02:27.448 --> 01:02:30.268 also in- invite that and would, would be welcome 01:02:30.308 --> 01:02:33.948 to, you know- 01:02:34.028 --> 01:02:34.118 Got it. 01:02:34.118 --> 01:02:37.208 ... help encourage and, and, and mobilize people. 01:02:37.288 --> 01:02:40.568 Got it, got it. I think that was it for, like, questions from my side. 01:02:40.608 --> 01:02:43.548 Is there anything else which you would, you know, either like to ask me or just 01:02:43.588 --> 01:02:46.568 bring up on your own? Anything else you feel, you know, 01:02:46.648 --> 01:02:48.188 important, this should be, you know, put in 01:02:49.128 --> 01:02:53.068 this video. Like is there anything like that or, 01:02:53.248 --> 01:02:53.608 Uh- 01:02:53.618 --> 01:02:54.988 ... end this? 01:02:55.008 --> 01:02:58.257 Yeah, I think, I think it's like, uh, I w- I was very... 01:02:58.288 --> 01:03:02.078 It was very interesting to see this interview with, um, 01:03:02.108 --> 01:03:05.948 Dennis, who's on hunger strike in, uh, London right now, 01:03:06.008 --> 01:03:09.968 with Max Tegmark who is, uh, has some reputation in the field 01:03:10.068 --> 01:03:11.328 of, you know, making 01:03:12.408 --> 01:03:16.348 the public aware of AI risk and has also got credentials. 01:03:16.428 --> 01:03:20.068 And what I would like to see, and I think is very 01:03:20.108 --> 01:03:24.078 important, is for more people that have that kind of credential or 01:03:24.168 --> 01:03:27.018 that kind of influence to speak out publicly 01:03:27.888 --> 01:03:28.728 on the urgency 01:03:29.568 --> 01:03:31.948 and acknowledge that this is an emergency. 01:03:31.988 --> 01:03:35.488 That the fact that we don't know how close the edge 01:03:35.568 --> 01:03:39.268 is, the fact that there is so much momentum, inertia in 01:03:39.308 --> 01:03:39.948 society, 01:03:41.308 --> 01:03:45.268 that maneuvering out of the range of this danger will take time and 01:03:45.288 --> 01:03:48.928 is a massive task. And we don't know if we have that time, 01:03:50.048 --> 01:03:53.268 and that the consequences of failing are so large 01:03:54.348 --> 01:03:54.568 that 01:03:55.408 --> 01:03:56.808 all this together is an emer- fo- 01:03:57.788 --> 01:04:01.208 Let's just, let's just be honest and tell the truth to the public. 01:04:01.288 --> 01:04:02.757 We're in an emergency right now 01:04:03.668 --> 01:04:06.408 and we need to act like it's an emergency. 01:04:07.888 --> 01:04:08.248 And 01:04:09.648 --> 01:04:13.348 fundamentally, this is a question of each of our's right 01:04:13.768 --> 01:04:17.728 to li- to life, to live. And we need to 01:04:17.768 --> 01:04:18.968 take action today 01:04:20.468 --> 01:04:23.008 to defend that right and to stop this race immediately. 01:04:23.048 --> 01:04:26.808 It's our right, it's our power collectively 01:04:28.008 --> 01:04:31.828 and it's our responsibility. And so let's, let's not le- you 01:04:31.888 --> 01:04:33.477 know, the whole future's riding on this. 01:04:33.508 --> 01:04:36.788 Let's not, let's not let 'em down. 01:04:37.688 --> 01:04:41.388 Got it. Got it, got it. Uh, yeah, I just wanted to 01:04:41.428 --> 01:04:43.668 again, like thank you for doing this podcast. 01:04:43.708 --> 01:04:47.348 You know, in spite of, you know, you literally being on, you know, 01:04:47.368 --> 01:04:50.548 hunger strike, you know, deteriorated, you know, physical strength, you know, 01:04:50.588 --> 01:04:53.708 mental strength. In spite of that, you came here, you know, 01:04:53.748 --> 01:04:57.708 gave such a coherent interview that I hope would be useful to 01:04:57.728 --> 01:04:59.378 all the viewers. Uh- 01:04:59.528 --> 01:04:59.928 Yeah. 01:04:59.938 --> 01:05:03.868 ... of this. Like I just really wanted to appreciate, 01:05:03.928 --> 01:05:05.648 actually did this and yeah- 01:05:05.708 --> 01:05:09.458 Yeah, absolutely. Thank you so much for putting in the 01:05:09.508 --> 01:05:13.498 there. That's something that I need to put more effort into myself 01:05:13.508 --> 01:05:15.878 the word out there, so... 01:05:16.008 --> 01:05:16.148 Yeah. 01:05:16.168 --> 01:05:16.668 Yeah. 01:05:16.688 --> 01:05:17.158 Got it. Got it. 01:05:17.168 --> 01:05:18.828 It's absolutely necessary. 01:05:18.868 --> 01:05:19.128 Yes. 01:05:19.168 --> 01:05:21.808 Thank you, Samuel. It was good talking. 01:05:21.848 --> 01:05:22.368 Cool. Yeah. 01:05:22.378 --> 01:05:24.448 Let's talk again soon. 01:05:24.528 --> 01:05:25.968 Yes, sure, sure, sure, sure.